American Airlines and Labor Negotiations

[NYer]

Can you show me in the RLA or the Representation Manual where it states the NMB can negotiate or force a party to an agreement?

Even with a PEB an independent arbitrator comes up with the deal after both sides present their case. And the only way to force the agreement is for Congress to legislate it and the President sign it into law.

Which has never happened in the airlines.

Personally I really really believe for some sick twisted reason you want to see them lose that Medical. It’s nothing more than a contest for you now. One you have to win.

OK. Then they have nothing to fear.

According to you, the NMB can't force an agreement, a PEB won't do it and Congress never imposed a CBA. Couple that with the fact the IAM has to agree to bring back a TA for a vote then they should be golden. They can keep their medical forever, they just need to say no.

 

[WeAAsles]

"I’d be willing to bet that given side by side comparisons (For Fleet) that we WILL have industry leading in ALL areas of our JCBA, comparing to IAM UAL and TWU SWA. Delta has no contract to compare to." --WeAAsles

Sometimes I say things to stir up the attempt to Rah Rah. Now go back and post how many arguments I’ve had where I said ILC is a moving target.

And going side by side with the Industry in most areas we will be industry leading anyway. “Most”

And STOP STOP STOP making this a battle of you vs I. You’re what is causing your own problems currently by ruling me up for combat.

 

[NYer]

well, according to samuelson, the pie for both public proposals from aa has been the same size, just the portions were cut differently.

as of the latest, prez says that overall, the contract is cost-neutral/cost-negative for the company.

the company tells me that they are offering me $4,500 more than ua and $5,300 more than dl, in yearly compensation.

the company isn't telling me and everyone else how much they will save by putting iam on laa insurance and eliminating catering/lav jobs? i'm assuming the above is the fodder for prez's argument about the contract being cost-neutral/negative?

can the company pull the wool over the NMB's eyes? as far as the NMB pointing at something...

....if aa's 'last-best' offer is sub-par, it will time for the assoc. to want profit sharing contractualized...just get it out there for the NMB and section 6 to compare to dl and ua.

let's see aa wiggle it's way out of that one. this could be the company's achilles heel. keep your dirty hands off my profits.

Everyone talks about the comparisons with the other airlines on the good stuff, like the profit sharing, but don't want to do the same with the bad parts of their CBA. The NMB will throw those comparisons at us. If we want something DL has then the NMB point towards something DL has that LAA wants but we don't want to give up.

We look at our specific situation, the NMB will be more of a generalist and look at other airlines and other industries. If we have the best of whatever and no one else has it, they will use the fact it is rare to try and push for a change. In 2010, they used those arguments to move us away from our position on the Retiree Medical telling the TWU that most other airlines and corporations moved towards a different plan. If they tell you that and you don't want to move they can send you home, for instance, and not call you back for 6 months. At one point during those negotiations, we didn't meet with the Company for almost a year.

 

[NYer]

Sometimes I say things to stir up the attempt to Rah Rah. Now go back and post how many arguments I’ve had where I said ILC is a moving target.

And going side by side with the Industry in most areas we will be industry leading anyway. “Most”

And STOP STOP STOP making this a battle of you vs I. You’re what is causing your own problems currently by ruling me up for combat.

Whatever. 😕

Maybe you shouldn't have used an absolute of "never."

 

[CremaDiLimone]

@NYer

again..if you're the company, is it worth saving $35-$40 million a year in insurance costs and reshuffling 1,000 jobs (they said no one would lose their job due to catering/lavs losses) to potentially get opened up for having aa work regionals in hubs (ala ua) and also, hundreds of millions more a year in potential profit sharing distributions?? remember, parker himself said the company will earn on average, $5 billion per year.

to me, it's a no-brainer for the company. to protect your profits...offer more in pay and 401k, lay off a bit on scope and you'll get your insurance.

put yourself in the company's shoes.

 

[WeAAsles]

OK. Then they have nothing to fear.

According to you, the NMB can't force an agreement, a PEB won't do it and Congress never imposed a CBA. Couple that with the fact the IAM has to agree to bring back a TA for a vote then they should be golden. They can keep their medical forever, they just need to say no.

Hate to tell you that I have never heard or recalled any Union being forced into an agreement. Hell even in Bankruptcy you can still say no and the Judge then throws out the Company’s obligation to have to abide by any now abrogated past terms.

So outside that Congress imposing a deal where do you see the UNION being forced to have to put anything out for a vote?

Guess the COMPANY isn’t under the same stipulations in your mind?

 

[WeAAsles]

@NYer

again..if you're the company, is it worth saving $35-$40 million a year in insurance costs and reshuffling 1,000 jobs (they said no one would lose their job due to catering/lavs losses) to potentially get opened up for having aa work regionals in hubs (ala ua) and also, hundreds of millions more a year in potential profit sharing distributions?? remember, parker himself said the company will earn on average, $5 billion per year.

to me, it's a no-brainer for the company. to protect your profits...offer more in pay and 401k, lay off a bit on scope and you'll get your insurance.

put yourself in the company's shoes.

He put himself in a box on this issue a long time ago and the only way to get out of that box is for him to do something he’s incapable of, admitting he’s wrong.

So he’s going to spin spin spin like an old Denny Terrio TV Dance show.

 

[aintgotnotimefodat]

@NYer

again..if you're the company, is it worth saving $35-$40 million a year in insurance costs and reshuffling 1,000 jobs (they said no one would lose their job due to catering/lavs losses) to potentially get opened up for having aa work regionals in hubs (ala ua) and also, hundreds of millions more a year in potential profit sharing distributions?? remember, parker himself said the company will earn on average, $5 billion per year.

to me, it's a no-brainer for the company. to protect your profits...offer more in pay and 401k, lay off a bit on scope and you'll get your insurance.

put yourself in the company's shoes.

Agree ...lay off a little on scope ...per our union leader GP ....if employees are at a station and they close it, they can't be protected...

Lol...they're gonna have no airplanes or flights at that station, but keep employees working at that station...really?

 

[NYer]

@NYer

again..if you're the company, is it worth saving $35-$40 million a year in insurance costs and reshuffling 1,000 jobs (they said no one would lose their job due to catering/lavs losses) to potentially get opened up for having aa work regionals in hubs (ala ua) and also, hundreds of millions more a year in potential profit sharing distributions?? remember, parker himself said the company will earn on average, $5 billion per year.

to me, it's a no-brainer for the company. to protect your profits...offer more in pay and 401k, lay off a bit on scope and you'll get your insurance.

put yourself in the company's shoes.

I don't quite think they see things in that way.

 

[CremaDiLimone]

if that's the case, then why negotiate or offer more than a previous offer?

just walk away..we (company) have nothing to lose. see you in section 6..later on, maybe with an arbitrator/PEB?

to me, the company does have something to lose. they don't want to contractualize PS. there's a reason for that. hundreds of millions of dollars that may go to people like you and me.

 

[Kev3188]

Hate to tell you that I have never heard or recalled any Union being forced into an agreement. Hell even in Bankruptcy you can still say no and the Judge then throws out the Company’s obligation to have to abide by any now abrogated past terms.

It never gets that far; everyone hears all about “guns to their heads” long before that, and the “concession stand is closed” signs all go poof.

Only exception I can think of is AMFA at NW?

 

[WeAAsles]

It never gets that far; everyone hears all about “guns to their heads” long before that, and the “concession stand is closed” signs all go poof.

Only exception I can think of is AMFA at NW?

You admire fools who died on the sword for nothing and no statues were ever erected in their honor. They didn’t even go down as martyrs.

I’m personally not interested in battling the opposition Army to try and win the Nation Kev. I just want to win the part of the battle that gives me my land.

Along with Andrew Moray, Wallace defeated an English army at the Battle of Stirling Bridge in September 1297. He was appointed Guardian of Scotland and served until his defeat at the Battle of Falkirk in July 1298. In August 1305, Wallace was captured in Robroyston, near Glasgow, and handed over to King Edward I of England, who had him hanged, drawn, and quartered for high treason and crimes against English civilians.

 

[WeAAsles]

They probably won't want to move from the 40% language since it's currently in the IAM book. I supposed the argument would be on how to calculate the 40% whether it would be as a percentage of the full membership or a percentage of the FTers.

Stating what is a probable outcome doesn't mean it is the preferred outcome and productive conversation to have is how to maximize that part of the negotiations if it turns out to be inevitable.

Just saying no is not a sustainable tactic.

Inevitable?

Well first the Negotiators came on here and told you that they want the 40% as a percentage of the FT so you’re just parroting what you were already told.

I’d like to know if ultimately the less favorable option were presented to you would you support sending that out for a vote to avoid Section 6?

Are you apprehensive about having to maybe re-enter the Section 6 process again because of your past experience with it?

 

[Kev3188]

You admire fools who died on the sword for nothing and no statues were ever erected in their honor. They didn’t even go down as martyrs.

I’m personally not interested in battling the opposition Army to try and win the Nation Kev. I just want to win the part of the battle that gives me my land.

Doesn’t work that way; You don’t get your land w/o fighting for the whole nation.

And my point stands; with one exception, labor in aviation has repeatedly caved during our careers.

 

[737823]

You admire fools who died on the sword for nothing and no statues were ever erected in their honor. They didn’t even go down as martyrs.

I’m personally not interested in battling the opposition Army to try and win the Nation Kev. I just want to win the part of the battle that gives me my land.

Along with Andrew Moray, Wallace defeated an English army at the Battle of Stirling Bridge in September 1297. He was appointed Guardian of Scotland and served until his defeat at the Battle of Falkirk in July 1298. In August 1305, Wallace was captured in Robroyston, near Glasgow, and handed over to King Edward I of England, who had him hanged, drawn, and quartered for high treason and crimes against English civilians.

The IAM was taunting AMFA in August 2005 but only a few months later the wolf of NWA came after them for concessions and they rolled over without a fight and gave NW exactly what they wanted. Their reward was to be decertified in 2010.

Josh