American Airlines and Labor Negotiations

[conehead777]

No sir, you are the one that is lying. They did not offer all the work. You have even stated in a previous post that they were just discussing after reading my email. We ask them to put it to paper and they refused. But again, if you don’t care about your credibility, you don’t care to lie. And I don’t have to talk about my integrity, Maybe you always feel the need to, but I don’t. They didn’t offer anything in writing. Keep spewing your lies. Like I said, about 5 people believe you.
That’s less than what used to. So your still doing your usual great job for the members.
If you really gave a crap about the membership, why are you always trying to deceive them. Is your own agenda really that important to you that you don’t give a crap in deceiving the membership. Is it because your bitter that they didn’t choose you yet again or what? I mean I know you called them all idiots and retarded but I just don’t get your insatiable need to always deceive. And the members know what I have told them about our pension and other issues. You sir do not know except second hand info, your not in the break rooms that I brief.

How do we know you the association clowns want release the proposals from both sides. I do not believe one word this association says I want to see everything in writing. If y’all had such a great proposal you would release for one so members would support you. And 2 to know what’s going on. I can’t support a union without information in writing. The iam/twu are very well known for not telling the truth. And I’m sick of the bs. Show us all the company proposal I know they just show the good on bullet points but it’s your responsibility to release everything thing to the member .put up are shut up I have a feeling you will sell us down the river to keep future union dues coming in. Since you profide nothing in writing as to what your asking for that’s all I can figure . And most twu members do not believe you . Where is our vote on the association we were promised.

 

[Tim Nelson]

Dont talk about members. You don’t have that right. And we didn’t give up all leverage. If you don’t think it’s very costly to the company to still have two different operations going all over the system, you are delusional. And now Parker has to explain to the stockholders how they are trimming cost, but yet leave millions in synergies just laying there. Why did they file for section 6 if they are fine where everyone is and we have no leverage.

The company didn't just file section 6, they did so and also invoked the voluntary 'expedited' negotiations. Why wouldn't they if they wanted to stay professional? I think Doug said it best 3 weeks ago when he said it may be best to let a 3rd party try to figure it out. Not sure you can imply that the company wants a fast deal or a slow deal with that normal move, we simply don't know. We do know that the company wants a deal that is favorable to them and it obviously felt this was the best option. Time will tell.

As for your comment, "costly for the company to have two different operations going on all over the system" is unfounded. Maybe I'm not following your point but what 2 operations are costly? Certainly, there are what, 12 different stations with 2 operations? 80% of the company ramp operations is contracted out. There aren't two operations in the majority of the other stations. I'm in one of the dozen or so 'two operatoins' and it isn't costly at all. Because you gave the company a 'seamless' merger with the cross utilization without addressing our health care, I get to relieve LAA agents for lunch, they get to relieve me for lunch, oftentimes when we have to move to other flights, we will do the inbound LAA and TWU will do the outbound, but there is no recognition anymore given to LUS aircraft or LAA aircraft. Dunno, maybe in BOS or LGA there is a cost to having 2 operations but it appears to be negligible since the company has no problem even assigning more work like the 175s there. But in any case, the company has it made since it has the cross utilization and has the TWU Bankrupt contract in its pocket. You honestly think they want to give that up? That's why our LUS Health care is on the line, right?

So, it seems to me that the company is actually saving millions and millions of dollars by just keeping the TWU Bankrupt contract which far outweighs any synergies from obtaining our LUS health care. The package on the table would have got some synergies but overall would have cost the company hundreds of millions of dollars. I think it said it would have added on over $3 billion over the life of the contract. So, not sure you will get any shareholders to boost our leverage by him being shrewd (Sp?).

 

[conehead777]

I do have a clue of what the membership wants. And I assure you the raise would have been voted in by a overwhelming majority. It’s fine to not agree with that. But I’m pretty sure I have a better feel for our membership than you do Mr. Swampt.

So we should of been allowed to vote for it. Because us on the aa side are losing out in all the other areas like Holliday pay and overtime sick pay etc. now why would the company need to give those things now when they got one of the most important things to them metal to metal.

 

[Tim Nelson]

You really think for one second the membership would have voted no for that pay raise? What world you living in? And yes there is still leverage.

His point was that you guys failed negotiation 101. You gave the company its Holy Grail by agreeing to 'line item' its Holy Grail for 20 pieces of silver. It had nothing to do with the members and everything to do with dues since the TWU reaped hundreds of thousands since their dues is 2 x wage.

And, you simply don't have any leverage for what you guys are asking for. That's why we are in this miserable situation. I mean, the only leverage you have on the property is to cough up LUS health. And the company already recognized that with its offer you guys rejected. We have zero industry leverage against the company's last and best offer since it was 10% over the total package at United and Delta. Yea, go argue to the press that the company is being unfair, and Doug will simply say that his company has more (actually thousands) jobs based in the US than any other airline and that his offer kept more jobs here than any other airline. So, no leverage there, thanks to you and the other idiots voting to recommend United Airlines management offer to our members at United that coughed up 400% health care, unlimited part time, and done away with many stations. What leverage do you have with catering and cargo when you dopes gave up all cargo at United and gave up Catering and the kitchens over at United.

With the last best offer of the company, you have zero industry leverage. Hell you don't even have a comeback, you just have to stay silent every time Parker plants it up your poopers that his offer far exceeds United. The only comeback that you dopes say is "I don't want to talk about United or even hear about it."
And, there is no such right to self help. ZERO. The only right to self help would be after a cooling off. And I guess I can't stop your from lying about that, but asking us to believe in fairy tales and 'shots in the dark' is being unreasonable.

 

[swamt]

Who is us?? If your not a member sir why do you have an opinion. I spend a lot of time explaining and answering members questions. And please don’t be like another poster on here and add words to my post to better fit your argument. I never stated it was a better option to be “ forced “ on anyone. There should have been a vote I agree. But the vote would have been two choices, yes for the association or no which would have meant no representation. The nmb ruled that there would be an association. Again, I was for a vote, but I also don’t sit around and cry about what happened. I move forward. But again, if your not a member, plz tell me why I owe you a answer to your questions? Do I at the IAM represent you in anyway?

You did in fact state that it was the better option to go with the asso. It just happens that the asso was forced upon the members, when the members had no say so whatsoever in a vote for or against. It's that simple. Your example is missing a third part CB and you know it. There was a third option coming IF there was a vote, this third option was AMFA could and more than like would have been put on the ballot either by votes or by write in. You knew this, the TWU and IAM knew this hence the forced asso upon the members so not to lose the mechanics at all airlines in the airline industry for the TWU and IAM. It would have been the nail in the coffin sort of speak. I am glad to hear that at least you too thought there should have been a vote, so why wasn't there one CB?? Don't push it off to the NMB either. It was in fact the IAM that ram rodded it thru the NMB thru a back door deal, just admit it.
Now to answer your final question. You are correct you do not owe me anything. What I feel you do owe is this membership the respect of knowing any and all info from the nego table. These are grown men and women you guys represent, so start treating them as such. Give them all the info from the table and let them use said info as they wish rather to support the NC or not. That would be totally up to them.
Now what is really sad is, it took an outsider (me) to finally get someone from this asso to engage in these realities that the membership is tired of being left in the dark. Since we have started communicating again more members are now coming forth with the very same complaints. Now do you hear them?? The same exact thing happened with myself and weezal. He now is more respectful of the info I bring to the members as he was proven wrong a many of times in the info he was getting from his leaders. he was shocked at how much I knew and he did not.
CB, it is more than likely way too late to save the mechanics (I can only hope) but you guys better start getting the real info to the members as they have been asking for, before you lose even more members than just the mechanics from this asso.
Blow me off all you want, you will be shocked what is coming at the table, the stalls have only just begun.

 

[swamt]

So we should of been allowed to vote for it. Because us on the aa side are losing out in all the other areas like Holliday pay and overtime sick pay etc. now why would the company need to give those things now when they got one of the most important things to them metal to metal.

Sorry for the lengthy rants on CB and Prez. but what does it take for them to hear you guys? Have more guys speak up they need to hear them as it seems they are just now starting to get it.
Again sorry, but I am sick of them and this asso ignoring the membership's wishes for so long. Just really sad it took an outsider to ring their bells though, don't ya agree???

 

[Tim Nelson]

So we should of been allowed to vote for it. Because us on the aa side are losing out in all the other areas like Holliday pay and overtime sick pay etc. now why would the company need to give those things now when they got one of the most important things to them metal to metal.

He will not acknowledge your statements. But we both know it was a dues grab. The TWU dues structure is based on 2 x wage. Boosting wages 13% means that the dues got boosted 13%. In exchange, the TWU now has to stand down on this awful IAM Pension. The company wins. The unions win. The members eat chiat.

What is done is done so let's move on. Looking forward, there are only two options. Period.

1. The union continues its working class hero narrative of 'self help'. Then in 4 years, the playbook will blame everything on the mediator as they did every other time and you will see the same letter that I just posted yesterday advising the membership that self help isn't an option and that if they reject the JCBA that more leverage will be given to the company and that the next offer will be less. That's the story.

2. The union continues its working class hero narrative of "Self Help". But a funny thing happens along the way, they were right that Trump would ruin the economy and that the economy does in fact cool off. In this scenario, the union loses the economic leverage for the company to keep the same offer on the table. I don't have the answer for how many jobs this will cost or what other concessions we would have to take, but it's not good.

That's the story. Those 2 options. Again, I'm not a prophet, but this merger is 'seamless' so stick a fork in our leverage. It gone with the cross utilization!

 

[Tim Nelson]

So tell me Tim are you a dues objecter or are you a non member? You stated previously you had rescinded your membership? Which imo gives you no opinion in any of this, so what is it at least as of today?

I resigned my membership in the IAM since it is not our collective bargaining agent. I gave up nothing other than voting on union officers. Blah.
Otherwise, neither me or you are members of the Association nor do we have any voting rights within it. The reality is that it can do whatever it chooses without your consent, separate from a JCBA. So, if it wanted, it could cut a deal with your health care for something else. Just like it cut the cross utilization deal for wages (That's a monster TA that would have been voted upon if it fell under the IAM District bylaws). Remember, if we were IAM, they couldn't make contractual changes like that. I remember back in 2000, we had a 'lead referendum' where we had to do a system vote just to pass that contractual change.

At any rate, while I am disappointed that I came to the necessary conclusion to resign my membership, it doesn't affect my opinion. My opinion doesn't stop and I don't lose it after resigning my membership. Why would it since I'm still paying for representation? I guess I can't complain about the 33% going into leftist organizations though, and that's fine. Definitely deal my opinion out of that crap now.

 

[conehead777]

Sorry for the lengthy rants on CB and Prez. but what does it take for them to hear you guys? Have more guys speak up they need to hear them as it seems they are just now starting to get it.
Again sorry, but I am sick of them and this asso ignoring the membership's wishes for so long. Just really sad it took an outsider to ring their bells though, don't ya agree???

Yes it’s time they here us. We are dues paying members.

 

[Tim Nelson]

IAM Bags another 800 members by allowing United to circumvent the EWR Port Authority minimums of $19 hr and replace it with $14 after 8 years.
It is a sad day for labor when Sito Pantoja and other anti unionist like Charlie Brown (guilt by support) create pink dog contracts to allow airlines to circumvent all of the wage gains put forth by city councils and Labor councils. At United Ground, the IAM signed a 23 page contract that tops out at $14 something after 8 years and has no health care guarantees. Charlie Brown supported this when he voted for the United Airline contract recommendation scorching thousands of jobs that the IAM later bagged by cutting the throats and getting automatic recognition from United and Alaska to circumvent local wage ordinances.

Charlie, you need to "OWN UP". These are your people, your group, doing this.

https://articles.nj.com/business/in..._of_newark_airport_workers_facing_layoffs.amp

 

[ALUS78]

thats not true. The company offer offered station protection for all current employees. Period. You never ever must have seen the grandfather language or even saw the offer?
Sito rejected the grandfather language because he wanted to keep the dues flow from the unborn in stations like jax.
Yes, almost 2 dozen small stations would eventually be replaced with vendors as the members retire or quit.
The union also wanted automatic iam recognition for the vendors as it negotiated at alaska and united so the union could expand its dues base.
Certainly, I cant say you are wrong for wanting to keep all the work in these small stations, but I think as a matter of being practical that you guys shouldnt have rejected the grandfather protections.

Tim do we have any recourse it obvious there was gross incompetence. I just can see going into section 6 with the same players.Do you think the Association would ever go for hiring a professional to sit on their side,the company has one in Glass

 

[WeAAsles]

They’ve escaped the Institution. Run for your lives.

 

[ALUS78]

They’ve escaped the Institution. Run for your lives.

View attachment 13335

Laugh all you want but it's your TWU brothers getting the short end here and likely years to come.

 

[WeAAsles]

Laugh all you want but it's your TWU brothers getting the short end here and likely years to come.

I let my gals Agnes and Ethel do my laughing for me cause they LOVE it so much.

And you got to admit the crazies were really riled up this morning. Woo Hoo. Crazies.

 

[Tim Nelson]

Tim do we have any recourse it obvious there was gross incompetence. I just can see going into section 6 with the same players.Do you think the Association would ever go for hiring a professional to sit on their side,the company has one in Glass

Not true. These guys all think they are Jimmy Hoffa. Don't you watch the Peterson videos and Baskett Videos "Attack this company" lol. "Do what you have to do.". They have absolutely no education about the cultural boundaries of today. Hoffa was a different time. Paternalism is dead. And on top of that, the worse thing anyone can do in today's information highway culture is to withhold disclosures. Sorry, they are absolute idiots. Sure, you get a few old pricks like Weezles who are living in the 1960s still. Great music.

What is doubly troubling is that the only leverage we have is economic in nature, i.e., the company only offered what it did because it was making billions and the economy is booming. Essentially, these were the best, most optimum economic times to bring the deal to a vote.

However, with the tedious nature of section 6 and the long process, we now have to hope, and even pray, that Trump's economy doesn't slow down or even stall or go backwards like all of the union bosses are saying it will on their own personal facebook pages. If they are right, then the question becomes, what else are we going to give up?

We blew it. We lost. Game Over. Sorry