American Airlines and Labor Negotiations

[Tim Nelson]

AA AMTs will not take your outsourcing. You don't mind it cause you already live it. We are used to doing our own maintenance and our engine shop being a real engine shop that actually tears down and builds up engines.

sorry im not lus mechanic. I have no idea what is in the mechanic contract.

 

[Tim Nelson]

No with billion dollar profits each quarter nothing should be given up only enhanced. Like jack leg Parker as said multiple times industry leading. That garbage they proposed is a jokethat some would actually take. You like to use the term sad now that’s sad. I am just coming back at you from what the company might do that’s all

of course its bad but there is something about the power of saying no. The association is in a predicament. The company and many members want the association to bring back the offer for a vote. But im all for not having a vote. The company has alot more money than the union and has already campaigned and i believe the company could even overstep the union and do road shows about how great its offer is. Im not goin to underestimat the company wanting this offer bad.

 

[Tim Nelson]

good...


at a personal level, what would you find acceptable getting back for losing your lus insurance?

if this saves the company $39 million per year and indirectly, maybe more..what is acceptable?

do you feel as though this should be the lus mindset? or, be defiant and never give in on this issue?

On a personal level all i have is myself on my healthcare so for me personally its not a $6500 hit.
But i think if you look at things, collectively, the pilots got a fair return for the same health care with a 16% base 401k. Thats fair enuf to bring it to the membership. I mean our health care is the same as the pilots had. The company barter was 16%. That was on the pilots presentation as pilots didnt want to lose their healthcare but it was explained that they exchanged it....with a premium cost positive 16%.
Parker cut that deal for them, he should offsr it for us.

 

[Jester]

I'm not going to underestimate the company wanting this offer bad.

If fleet service accepts the Company's proposal, as is, then to be certain someone like this senior management guy will be having a private moment...

On a personal level all i have is myself on my healthcare so for me personally its not a $6500 hit. But i think if you look at things, collectively, the pilots got a fair return for the same health care with a 16% base 401k. Thats fair enuf to bring it to the membership. I mean our health care is the same as the pilots had. The company barter was 16%. That was on the pilots presentation as pilots didn't want to lose their healthcare but it was explained that they exchanged it....with a premium cost positive 16%. Parker cut that deal for them, he should offer it for us.

Personally, I never fully bought the $6,500 estimated annual hit as it would require everyone within the family to be at maximum deductible and to be sure there are an unfortunate few. However, it is not the norm or the average, but that's the number cited to be paid by everyone covered by LUS insurance for the IAM to make its argument.

As for Management's push for LAA insurance, there are two ways to view it... it is non-negotiable and let's go to Section 6 and eventual binding mediation or it's negotiable and subject to a very high price. As the pilots got 16% into their 401K, then it is not outside of the realm of possibilities.

 

[Tim Nelson]

If fleet service accepts the Company's proposal, as is, then to be certain someone like this senior management guy will be having a private moment...




Personally, I never fully bought the $6,500 estimated annual hit as it would require everyone within the family to be at maximum deductible and to be sure there are an unfortunate few. However, it is not the norm or the average, but that's the number cited to be paid by everyone covered by LUS insurance for the IAM to make its argument.

As for Management's push for LAA insurance, there are two ways to view it... it is non-negotiable and let's go to Section 6 and eventual binding mediation or it's negotiable and subject to a very high price. As the pilots got 16% into their 401K, then it is not outside of the realm of possibilities.

i dont think ive ever heard the term Binding Mediation. Maybe it exists in the sense where mediation can be requested exclusively by a union or company whereby an argument can be made that section 6 talks are stalled after a year or more of section 6 negotiations but a mediator will only bind the parties to meet. Certainly there has never been one case in this industry since 1934 whereby a mediator or arbitrator made a binding ta in section 6 without the prior consent of the parties.
If things drag out, it is also unlikely that a peb would get involved. I think there were only 3, one of which was AA pilots, but none of them were ordered by republicans and none were with ground employees. So this idea by sito, over at united, that arbitration cometh is just myth and not supported by any casework.
i trust you find that interesting jester.

 

[Tim Nelson]

And BTW, there has NEVER been one single case of congressional intervention in the Airline Industry post PEB recommendations. Although a PEB only happened 3 times in this industry, the recommendations were deemed reasonable enough to accept by both the Union and Airline.

IMO, the company's position is totally unreasonable, given the big profits and I don't think it ever gets to a PEB, but if it did, the company's current position is unyielding and any PEB recommendation wouldn't necessarily be evil. Maybe not as much as we wanted, but likely more cost positive, based on the company's current cruddy stance, imo.

 

[Racer X]

If fleet service accepts the Company's proposal, as is, then to be certain someone like this senior management guy will be having a private moment...




Personally, I never fully bought the $6,500 estimated annual hit as it would require everyone within the family to be at maximum deductible and to be sure there are an unfortunate few. However, it is not the norm or the average, but that's the number cited to be paid by everyone covered by LUS insurance for the IAM to make its argument.

As for Management's push for LAA insurance, there are two ways to view it... it is non-negotiable and let's go to Section 6 and eventual binding mediation or it's negotiable and subject to a very high price. As the pilots got 16% into their 401K, then it is not outside of the realm of possibilities.

The $6500.00 is the difference in PREMIUMS paid out of pocket by the employee. $6500.00 is the number if you have the current LUS 80% plan for family, and you elect the Company 80% family plan.
Lus $106.00 month
AA $653.00 month
$547.00 a month more out of your pocket on PREMIUMS ALONE. Not to mention the total out of pocket costs. Total is $6564.00 MORE PER YEAR. 5 yr deal almost $33,000.00 more paid by employee. ( 5 yr deal just an example)

 

[Tim Nelson]

The $6500.00 is the difference in PREMIUMS paid out of pocket by the employee. $6500.00 is the number if you have the current LUS 80% plan for family, and you elect the Company 80% family plan.
Lus $106.00 month
AA $653.00 month
$547.00 a month more out of your pocket on PREMIUMS ALONE. Not to mention the total out of pocket costs. Total is $6564.00 MORE PER YEAR. 5 yr deal almost $33,000.00 more paid by employee. ( 5 yr deal just an example)

yea that truly sucks. And it's amazing the company is just saying "Oh by the way" and not offering premium plus value for the exact same thing they costed out as a fair deal by offering 16% switcheroo with the Pilots. If 16% is good enough for the pilots then it's something we need to look at as well in exchange. Otherwise, the power of saying no.

 

[Racer X]

The $6500.00 is the difference in PREMIUMS paid out of pocket by the employee. $6500.00 is the number if you have the current LUS 80% plan for family, and you elect the Company 80% family plan.
Lus $106.00 month
AA $653.00 month
$547.00 a month more out of your pocket on PREMIUMS ALONE. Not to mention the total out of pocket costs. Total is $6564.00 MORE PER YEAR. 5 yr deal almost $33,000.00 more paid by employee. ( 5 yr deal just an example)

There is another way to look at though....thru the TWU eyes. These same numbers would be a PAY INCREASE to the Twu represented employees with the coverage mentioned.
$547.. more per month
$6564 more per year
$ 32,800 more over 5 year deal. IN THEIR POCKETS!!!

 

[Racer X]

yea that truly sucks. And it's amazing the company is just saying "Oh by the way" and not offering premium plus value for the exact same thing they costed out as a fair deal by offering 16% switcheroo with the Pilots. If 16% is good enough for the pilots then it's something we need to look at as well in exchange. Otherwise, the power of saying no.

Even given the 16%....it’s a major hit in he pocket. Yes the 401k would look good but paying 6500 a year ( if you don’t use it) is a killer no matter what. If you unfortunately have to use the insurance your copays and out of pocket are additional financial burdens. It’s horrible!!

 

[CremaDiLimone]

CremaDiLimone,

Of course we know the numbers. Let me throw some numbers out there. Gain 1 sick day, get full pay for first sick day, get 3 holidays, get $.55-$.61 shift differential if you fit the hours, get $.70 if a CC, get $.24 raise at top out, get 5% 401k, get up to 4% match 401k if you put in up to 4%, get 6 weeks vacation at 30 years. Here's what else the company wants besides just the insurance: lose 500-700 catering jobs, lose 60-80 mail in LAS and PHX, lose 5.5%-11.5% pension contribution depending on where you are on scale. That's for LUS.

Now for LAA. You gain 5 holidays, 5 sick days, 6 weeks vacation at 30 years, $.11 CC, $.55-$.61 shift differential, $.24 raise, get 5% 401k, get up to 4% 401k match, double time OT. What do they want from you: to fill FT vacancies when they occur with roughly 1000 part time employees, lose deicing.

And for the icing on the company cake, they want several jobs on the "when and where directed" list which would be lavs, water, etc.

I don't have the numbers but this contract offer is cost negative or at best cost neutral. Reminder, the company wants 17% of our jobs between fleet and MX.

Anybody still wonder why we are saying phuck you company?

P. Rez

[/QUOTE]

no complaints from me. the total compensation package is pathetic and the company is pulling every maximalist bargaining string (scope) to give less compensation, as you 'rescue' much of scope at the end of the day. i see this as being the company's prepared bargaining script.

the 'numbers' comment was aimed at tim, as he posted that lus would lose their insurance and not get anything for it. i'm sure you have the numbers, and even more sure that you don't wish to comment on an issue that i feel needs to be weighed and measured by lus: what and how much is acceptable in lieu of losing lus insurance?

i asked tim because he is not a negotiator and has absolutely nothing to lose. to his credit, he answered (16% 401k company contribution)...though, 16% from $180k is different than 16% from $75k.

i sympathize with your plight in that even hinting that you'd consider what you have to consider is professional (union position) suicide. at the same token, it's imperative that it be discussed amongst the negotiators. i would also prefer not to have the company publicly know what they'll need to pony up to get lus on laa insurance.

the good news is what happened (besides the 3% raise and higher differential pay) at dl. apparently, some positive financial changes will occur for 'ready reserve; aa's crutch in it's argument about competitive labor costs.

 

[Tim Nelson]

Even given the 16%....it’s a major hit in he pocket. Yes the 401k would look good but paying 6500 a year ( if you don’t use it) is a killer no matter what. If you unfortunately have to use the insurance your copays and out of pocket are additional financial burdens. It’s horrible!!

16% is better than the 9% but still not the same value the company costed out in its worth for Pilots and it still doesnt cover the costout of the medical.
I mean 16% of the avg pilot salary is around $32,000. Whereas 16% of $70,000 is around $10,000. Since we already had 5.5% retirement, the increase would be only 9.5% or around $6,500 which is the increased cost out for this year. But with that crazy insurance going up 10% a year, a 16% 401k would be a cost negative swap out. Its more like a 16% 401k plus a extra week of vacation for everyone just to be cost neutral for that big concession. The 16% was cost positive for pilots because of how much money they make.
At any rate, we should be asking for increases in medical to bring pt up to FT level. Company makes billions.

 

[737823]

Tim:
I think Rez isn’t thinking objectively on the pension, he is taking his matching orders from the international and they obviously want to both maintain the plan but also get LAA TWU into it. I was just in DCA and the IAMNPF has some nice facilities right by DuPont Circle.

Josh

 

[737823]

This is what P. Rez seems to cling to:

UT--

Of all the items the company was asking for in each of the proposed concessionary agreements, the *one* thing everyone-junior, senior, 'tween- I spoke with were amenable to was the 401k match. NW would have frozen the pension anyway, so the choice was either the match, or the IAMNP plan. NO ONE wanted the IAM plan, yet it was the one thing the IAM fought hardest for. Not scope, not wages, their plan...

And just how much will retiring folks get from the IAM plan? No one can tell you! The officers in DL143 have no idea how much the multiplier will be..... :angry:

Some things never change, apparently. This is from Kev at NWA in 2006, no one at NW wanted the loser IAMNPF.

Josh

 

[737823]

Lol,

I'm telling you what the vesting period is for us. As for you saying I'm wrong, no I wasn't. Remember, I'm LUS, we don't get the 5.5% match either. Higher up management gets first class, bonuses, stock options, etc. So, if I don't state we are trying for all of that, I'm aiming low? Reality check.

P. Rez

This plan isn’t for the top brass Rez. This is for L1-L4 management making $60k-$150k base.

Josh