American Responds

[lpbrian]

Oh, I forgot... real pensions are for upper management types. perhaps that will add to AA's "labor costs"

 

[Wretched Wrench]

Oh, I forgot... real pensions are for upper management types. perhaps that will add to AA's "labor costs"

"REAL PENSIONS?

I believe Carty got triple (or maybe just double) years credit for the time he was on the payroll when his pension was calculated. Plus, he kept a lot of other perks.

 

[The Goose]

Oh, I forgot... real pensions are for upper management types. perhaps that will add to AA's "labor costs"

Managements Attitude

"The peasants have no bread!"

"Then, let them eat cake!"

Someone lost their mind over that one.

 

[eolesen]

I find that a little difficult to believe Carty retired with 60 years of pensionable credit...

People overlook just how long Carty was actually at AMR, but he had 20 years of actual seniority. Started in 1978, left in 1985 to go to work for CP, and then came back to AMR in 1987.

I'll have to dig up the SEC filing but Carty forfeited his severance. He kept his retiree travel and health benefits, which is the same anyone else of retirement age would get when resigning. That's about it for "perks" he got, though.

In retrospect, what Carty allegedly did in 2003 really pales in comparison to what the CEO's and other C level officers did to the banking and mortgage industry, let alone what Glenn Tilton and Dough Steenland did to their respective airlines...

 

[The Goose]

I find that a little difficult to believe Carty retired with 60 years of pensionable credit...

People overlook just how long Carty was actually at AMR, but he had 20 years of actual seniority. Started in 1978, left in 1985 to go to work for CP, and then came back to AMR in 1987.

I'll have to dig up the SEC filing but Carty forfeited his severance. He kept his retiree travel and health benefits, which is the same anyone else of retirement age would get when resigning. That's about it for "perks" he got, though.

In retrospect, what Carty allegedly did in 2003 really pales in comparison to what the CEO's and other C level officers did to the banking and mortgage industry, let alone what Glenn Tilton and Dough Steenland did to their respective airlines...

What Carty "did" was, with the aid of the BOD, pull off one of the best acts the airlines industry had ever seen.

I do believe he "fell on the sword" to retire (as he was going to anyway). He and the TWU orchestrated his "departure" putting on quite the show for the rank and file to ensure the permanent concessions, bringing us where we are today, being "led" by a greedy bunch of bastards, both in the company and at the TWU International.

While you're looking at the SEC docs, pay close attemtion to what the devil collected leading up to his departure - sure he forfeited his "severance"; he got it up front when nobody was looking and the troops were none the wiser when he left

 

[Wretched Wrench]

Wretched Wrench: I believe Carty got triple (or maybe just double) years credit for the time he was on the payroll when his pension was calculated. Plus, he kept a lot of other perks.

I find that a little difficult to believe Carty retired with 60 years of pensionable credit...

People overlook just how long Carty was actually at AMR, but he had 20 years of actual seniority. Started in 1978, left in 1985 to go to work for CP, and then came back to AMR in 1987.

Yeah, it was just double. He got 31 years credit for the 15 years he worked before his staged ouster.

I'll have to dig up the SEC filing but Carty forfeited his severance.

He didn't forfeit it, Boren and the board decided not to offer it.

He kept his retiree travel and health benefits, which is the same anyone else of retirement age would get when resigning.

Check, and you'll see his medical is way better than "anyone else" gets. And, I am sure he does not sweat out the class of his pass or his seating. Sadly, he can't get regs changed so his trophy wife's kid can travel in F as before.

That's about it for "perks" he got, though.

He also got 8.2 million after tax dollars from the SERP. This is protected from any bankruptcy action. Our pension is not protected in any way, save the PBGC, which is already horribly underfunded by airline pension defaults.

Who picks up his tab at the Masters, for example?

In retrospect, what Carty allegedly did in 2003 really pales in comparison to what the CEO's and other C level officers did to the banking and mortgage industry, let alone what Glenn Tilton and Dough Steenland did to their respective airlines...

Agreed. The arrogance is the same, only the dollar amounts are different.

 

[Hopeful]

I find that a little difficult to believe Carty retired with 60 years of pensionable credit...

People overlook just how long Carty was actually at AMR, but he had 20 years of actual seniority. Started in 1978, left in 1985 to go to work for CP, and then came back to AMR in 1987.

I'll have to dig up the SEC filing but Carty forfeited his severance. He kept his retiree travel and health benefits, which is the same anyone else of retirement age would get when resigning. That's about it for "perks" he got, though.

In retrospect, what Carty allegedly did in 2003 really pales in comparison to what the CEO's and other C level officers did to the banking and mortgage industry, let alone what Glenn Tilton and Dough Steenland did to their respective airlines...

Simple Google search found this:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html...755C0A9659C8B63

 

[lpbrian]

lets not forget "light bulb" Leo Mullin who served less than 5 years, but "retired" as though he had much more....

 

[TWU informer]

Donald J. Carty, who resigned as the chief executive of the AMR Corporation in April, will not receive a severance package but will get more than $8 million in benefits earned during his 25 years with AMR, the company said yesterday. The board of AMR, the parent company of American Airlines, decided that Mr. Carty will receive only pension, stock options and benefits he earned, and ''nothing special after that,'' an American spokesman, Al Becker, said. Mr. Carty will receive a $79,000 annual pension payment from the deferred benefit plan and a one-time after-tax payment of $8.2 million from assets of the supplemental executive retirement program, Mr. Becker said. He will also get medical and travel benefits.

$79,000.00 annually for 25 years! No wonder AA has a defined pension plan problem. AA's labor cost and pension problems are easy to find once you realize these cost are calculated right along with ours for the "labor cost per ASM"

Just how many of these JACKS do we have making that much per year and contributing nothing,

Give me that and I will leave right now no questions asked.

 

[The Goose]

$79,000.00 annually for 25 years! No wonder AA has a defined pension plan problem. AA's labor cost and pension problems are easy to find once you realize these cost are calculated right along with ours for the "labor cost per ASM"

Just how many of these JACKS do we have making that much per year and contributing nothing,

Give me that and I will leave right now no questions asked.

The was an article in some rag about how these executive bennies are counted towards the appearance of the proles' retirement funds/company contributions.

I don't remember where it was, but it explained a lot as to the methods of recordkeeping and how we always end up with the hind tit.

 

[Wretched Wrench]

$79,000.00 annually for 25 years! No wonder..........................

Actually, I'm OK with his 79 grand. It's the SERP bankrupt-proof 8.2 million after taxes that galls me.

 

[FWAAA]

He also got 8.2 million after tax dollars from the SERP. This is protected from any bankruptcy action. Our pension is not protected in any way, save the PBGC, which is already horribly underfunded by airline pension defaults.

Wrench, I often agree with your postings, but this one's in error. Your pension is protected, in part, by the $9.1 billion of assets (as of 12/31/07) of the AA pension plans, held in irrevocable trusts. Creditors of AA cannot attach or reach these assets in any way. They are protected from bankruptcy action.

That doesn't mean that AA could not petition a bankruptcy court to terminate them ala UA/US/DL pilot pensions. But even if that happened, the PBGC would get the $9.1 billion of assets to help pay the pensions.

I realize the SERP is a sore subject but what lots of people don't realize is that the SERP contained no assets until Carty's partial funding of the SERP. The SERP is non-qualified, so funding it in advance isn't as advantageous as with your much smaller, qualified pensions. Funding the SERP requires that tax be paid up front, while your pensions aren't taxed until you retire and draw checks.

I'm not happy that Carty the Criminal got $8 million, but let's not get carried away. Your pension was 96% funded on 12/31/07, a much higher percentage than the SERP.

 

[Boomer]

Wrench, I often agree with your postings, but this one's in error. Your pension is protected, in part, by the $9.1 billion of assets (as of 12/31/07) of the AA pension plans, held in irrevocable trusts. Creditors of AA cannot attach or reach these assets in any way. They are protected from bankruptcy action.

That doesn't mean that AA could not petition a bankruptcy court to terminate them ala UA/US/DL pilot pensions. But even if that happened, the PBGC would get the $9.1 billion of assets to help pay the pensions.

I realize the SERP is a sore subject but what lots of people don't realize is that the SERP contained no assets until Carty's partial funding of the SERP. The SERP is non-qualified, so funding it in advance isn't as advantageous as with your much smaller, qualified pensions. Funding the SERP requires that tax be paid up front, while your pensions aren't taxed until you retire and draw checks.

I'm not happy that Carty the Criminal got $8 million, but let's not get carried away. Your pension was 96% funded on 12/31/07, a much higher percentage than the SERP.

FWAA,
You said, "Your pension is protected, in part, by the $9.1 billion of assets (as of 12/31/07) of the AA pension plans..."

That number is based on "smoothing" the assumed rate of return on assets invested. In fact, DBP plan participants-any DBP participants- are forbidden from forcing the details of those investments so that an independent calculation of funding status can be performed.

Further, PBGC covered DBP plans are not considered underfunded until they reach 80% of the total amount required to fully fund present and future obligations.

 

[FWAAA]

FWAA,
You said, "Your pension is protected, in part, by the $9.1 billion of assets (as of 12/31/07) of the AA pension plans..."

That number is based on "smoothing" the assumed rate of return on assets invested. In fact, DBP plan participants-any DBP participants- are forbidden from forcing the details of those investments so that an independent calculation of funding status can be performed.

No, that's not entirely correct. The $9.1 billion was the fair market value of the stocks, bonds, real estate and other securities in the trusts on 12/31/07, not dependent on any rate of return assumptions.

Whether that number (representing actual value of assets) was enough to fund the plans to 96% required some assumptions about rate of return (and, of course, future contributions by the company), among others, like ages of empoyees, assumed date of retirements, etc.

To be clear - the $9.1 billion is the value of the existing plan assets at the end of last year. The 96% funded number is variable-dependent.

 

[TWU informer]

How would you like to be dependent on a stock based 401K retirement after the last two weeks?

What is the value of the defined pension plan now that we have witnessed 1 year of DJIA losses?