American to keep Eagle's 2 billion plus debt

[eolesen]

After 25 years of talking to pilots and TWU members, what people say in the cockpit or break room is usually comprised of 50% testosterone, 40% peer pressure, and 10% reason.

I'm sure the surveys probably reflect the emotion and frustration around lack of progress on a contract as much as they do on the specifics of scope. Not so sure that it will pan out the same if and when it comes time to a vote on a TA.

And y'all aren't alone on this. The guys at CO and UA are just as wound up over scope. But there, too, i suspect reality is going to set in. In the case of UA/CO, it's going to be tougher because the genie is already out of the bottle at UA with no real limits on the use of 70 seaters. CO has allowed more outsourcing due to lack of an ASM limit, but capacity is capped at 50 seats...

 

[WorldTraveler]

Standing up for scope is the greatest sign of solidarity of a union... any INDIVIDUAL will choose their own pay and benefits as the primary driver but when people act as a union, the priorities have to shift to protecting the group more than the individual. There have been no shortage of examples of unions failing to protect the interests of the group only to find that the individuals themselves ultimately pay the price.
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As for the size of regional operations at the big 3 - AA, DL, UA, based on the most recent traffic statistics, AE generates about 10% of the total mainline ASMs and 15% of domestic mainline ASMs; DL Connection generates about 12% of total system mainline ASMs and 26% of domestic mainline ASMs; and UA Express generates about 15% of system mainline ASMs and 29% of domestic mainline ASMs.
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So, yes, DL and UA generate a whole lot more domestic capacity via their regional carriers than AA does... and the 12% AA is asking APA for would put them in the ballpark w/ DL in terms of regional carrier size relative to mainline but still short of UA.
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But it is also worth noting that DL and UA both generate almost half of their mainline ASMs on international routes, which generate much higher pay rates than domestic for pilots.
CO has long been a much more int'l carrier than UA and accounts for a big chunk of the increased int'l ASMs that UA has seen since the merger. CO also had a very strict RJ scope clause which their pilots have not relaxed - and which is a sticking point now. CO pilots had the best of both worlds - a lot of int'l flying and limited RJ operations.
I believe UA did cram down pretty expansive scope changes as part of its BK contracts and UA's higher rates of domestic regional flying show it.
DL, OTOH, went from being 25% int'l to 50% int'l mainline capacity over a space of about 5 years. DL pilots never were forced to accept huge scope changes... they largely were rewarded with very significant increases in int'l flying as DL redeployed capacity from the domestic to int'l arenas. Now, DL is increasing domestic mainline capacity while reducing regional carrier capacity and DL is the only US carrier that is doing that.

Thus, scope is absolutely important but alot depends on what you gain for what you give up. UA's pilots didn't see much int'l growth in exchange for relaxing their scope - even if it was under duress in BK. CO pilots enjoyed lots of int'l growth and held onto tight scope controls. DL pilots gave up scope but gained alot of int'l flying for the change and now continue to benefit as DL adjusts its network to add mainline domestic capacity while cutting regional carrier capacity.
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What appears to be lacking is that AA pilots will gain anything for relaxing their scope and they should be justifiably concerned absent those guarantees. The 77Ws and 787s have the POTENTIAL to significantly grow the size of AA's int'l ops but w/o assurance those new planes won't just be used for replacement, the scope issue will remain on the table.
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Finally, keep in mind that DL and UA are generating significant revenue premiums to AA on the domestic market and the ability to right-size capacity undoubtedly is a big reason why. DL's ability to move into a market like LGA-ORD with an all RJ schedule (E-jets) and gain a 15% market share up against AA and UA who are well established and use all mainline aircraft is testimony to the power to use RJs to increase revenue. DL clearly would not have started the market if they had to use mainline aircraft.
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And DL and UA are generating much stronger financial results than AA/AMR.
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Using RJs can help the bottom line which CAN help employees. AA's employees should recognize that other carriers will use regional jets to their advantage - and AA will be DISADVANTAGED if they can't compete on a similar basis. But AA's employees need to ensure they get some return for their investment - including the assurance that growth will replace what has been given up. Those are tough promises to make but there is enough evidence to show that relaxing scope can be good for employees AND the company.

 

[Super FLUF]

After 25 years of talking to pilots and TWU members, what people say in the cockpit or break room is usually comprised of 50% testosterone, 40% peer pressure, and 10% reason.

That's true, to an extent.

On overall issues, sure guys talk tough around peers or on the internet.

However, everyone has their personal limit. Scope affects EVERY pilot, up to the very most senior. Everyone has slid backwards here or at best stagnated. When translated into lost income or hits to quality of life issues the personal losses are staggering. Mainline flying outsourced to "codeshare" or to Eagle has caused the vast majority of this.

You have your differences from person to person on things like pay expectations, scheduling issues etc., but I can guarantee you that the one thing that every single pilot is ready to strike over is scope.

It is interesting that the recent aircraft order got a shrug of the shoulders by the pilot group. Apparently the company is "very disappointed" in the pilot group's reaction to the aircraft order. Why do you think that is? Because nobody here even thinks we will fly anything over the current number of planes we have now. In fact, everyone on property believes that we will continue to shrink, and AMR will eventually sell those extra options to competitors for profit. Nobody sees any vision from this "leadership" (term used extremely loosely) for growing this airline into a global powerhouse. Everyone sees this teAAm wanting to run a virtual airline - dozens of other airlines flying around with the AA code on it and AMR collecting money for doing nothing.

They obviously are in over their head on being able to competently run an airline and recognize that. We lose buckets of money while everyone else makes decent profits. We are consistently pulling up the rear in DOT statistics - everything from on-time to baggage handling. "The gang that couldn't shhot straight" Sorry, but this management team has got to go. We need a visionary team that wants to run the best airline and grow it into a powerhouse. Do you think Bob Crandall would be proud of what this group of bean counters have done to his airline?

(I already know the answer to that. I talked to Bob a few months ago when he came into our cockpit and we chatted about the current state of the airline, and his comments about our leadership were......"less than flattering")

 

[Frank Szabo]

... snip

(I already know the answer to that. I talked to Bob a few months ago when he came into our cockpit and we chatted about the current state of the airline, and his comments about our leadership were......"less than flattering")

I am assuming you've no reason to BS the crowd here re: Uncle Bob's comments.

It's nice to know we aren't alone in our disdain for the Centrepork infestation and board of directors, in fact, in damned good company.

Crandall was a great businessman and a Son of a #### - Our personal Son of a #### and I really miss his way of doing things.

 

[TWU informer]

Let's see a poll about how many Pilots would burn the place down over scope, only to lose their Sacred Cow Pension to the PGBC

 

[Super FLUF]

Let's see a poll about how many Pilots would burn the place down over scope, only to lose their Sacred Cow Pension to the PGBC

The B fund is independent of the company. The A fund is the part that could be lost, and could be made up by flying a few more months.

If you want proof of how little the A fund (or large losses to the unit value of the B fund) means to guys, look how many stayed past age 60, even when they KNEW the B fund unit value was tanking to the tune of tens to a couple of hundred thousand dollars.

 

[Buck]

AMR Corporation (NYSE: AMR) reports its subsidiary, AMR Eagle Holding Corporation, has filed a Form 10 Registration Statement with the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission.

The Form 10 filing marks the next step in a potential spin-off of Eagle and describes the potential spin-off, provides an overview of Eagle's business, management and its ongoing relationship with American Airlines, and provides historical and pro forma consolidated financial statements of Eagle. In the spin-off, AMR Corporation would distribute to its stockholders 100 percent of the outstanding shares of Eagle on a pro rata basis, and AMR Corporation would not retain any ownership interest in Eagle.

Does this mean that those that held onto there 446 gift shares would be compensated?

 

[IORFA]

AMR Corporation (NYSE: AMR) reports its subsidiary, AMR Eagle Holding Corporation, has filed a Form 10 Registration Statement with the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission.

The Form 10 filing marks the next step in a potential spin-off of Eagle and describes the potential spin-off, provides an overview of Eagle's business, management and its ongoing relationship with American Airlines, and provides historical and pro forma consolidated financial statements of Eagle. In the spin-off, AMR Corporation would distribute to its stockholders 100 percent of the outstanding shares of Eagle on a pro rata basis, and AMR Corporation would not retain any ownership interest in Eagle.

Does this mean that those that held onto there 446 gift shares would be compensated?

Only if you purchased them, not cashed them out. I.E. sent in $5 per 446 shares.

 

[eolesen]

If you sold shares to cover the option price, rather than sending in $5 per share, I see no reason why you wouldn't be getting shares in Eagle corresponding to your current holdings (446 less the number of shares exercised to cover the option price)

 

[FrequentFlierCA]

A billion for JAL, the largest aircraft order in history and now another $2 billion that AA can spring for, only hardens my resolve to get what we need or sink the whole enterprise.

Fact-challenged as usual, Bob. There was no "billion" for JAL, at least not that came out of AA's accounts.

Largest aircraft order in history required very little cash up-front. Payments begin when the aircraft are delivered. Fuel gains begin when they enter service.

Sinking the whole enterprise is exactly what you seem willing to do. For the sake of the rest of AA's hard-working employees I hope radicals like you get shouted down.