AMFA/AGW vs. IAM

[diogenes]

For those not in the know, AGW, which largely exists on paper, is a junior partner of AMFA. Interesting that for years, AMFA has stated it will only represent mechanics. Now, AMFA is seeking to represent fleet service, whom it previously scorned, as well as flight attendants. Who will be riding on who's coattails?

Let us take up the discontent with the IAM. As readers know, I have my differences with IAM operations. A little too top down, and way too hard to vote out current office holders - the infamous 'slate'. I have been upfront with my dissent on these matters, and currently reside atop the 'list'. That's ok, I knew what I was doing.

On the other hand, I do not advocate decertifying or replacing the IAM.

You know, I have had differences with my wife for 20 years. We understand we're a work in progress, not perfect. Part of the deal is staying and doing the hard work, rather than the easier course of running away.

I am unaware of any church out there that has a dogma or creed I 100% adhere to. Some days, the pews are full of hypocrites, or the preacher gets a little too political. Yet we attend, and God's work gets done, despite all of our shortcomings.

I have major issues with where the Hoover/McCarthy Republicans are taking this country, yet I am not seeking asylum elsewhere.

Say your kid comes to you with a broken bike. After a quick look, you determine the perfect, compleat tool is the 1/2 inch, 12 point, brand new Craftsman box end wrench in your toolbox. Alas, your mooching brother-in-law has 'borrowed' your toolbox yet again. You scrounge thru your junk drawer, and find a pair of rusted, guaranteed to slip and bust your knuckles, shoulda been thrown away, channel locks. Are you going to say, kid, I don't have the perfect tool, so fugitaboutit, OR, are you going to spray some WD40 on the POS locks, bust your knuckles, supress the urge to swear (kid's nearby), and get the kid going again?

No human effort is perfect. If such an effort were achieved, they wouldn't let me in, anyway! 'Dance with the gal what brung ya' is pretty sage advice.

 

[diogenes]

Having said that, I am not advocating blind or heedless fidelity. That way lies facism. If the Founders had been blindly loyal, we would be speaking British and taking high tea. Martin Luther created a Reformation when he posted his protest of Church corruption. I would not advocate remaining with an abusive spouse. At some point, you have to jump ship.

One question you must examine when plotting revolt is, is there a viable alternative?

Is AGW a viable alternative to IAM? I think not, and for the following reasons.

AGW currently exists mostly in someone's 'IN' basket. I'd prefer a bit more experience, if you please. I fully understand any revolution begins as an idea, but I haven't seen where AMFA/AGW offers any unique insight. What they mostly say is, "we're not the IAM." Unintentionally, yet ironically, that is true.

From what I know, most AGW/AMFA'ers were anti-IAM all the way back to 1993, as was their right. I tried to bring the Steelworkers onto the property. But the IAM won fair and square, and I committed to working with them to improve our working conditions.

AMFA/AGW has NO political clout on the local, state, federal or international level. The IAM, on it's own behalf, and working with the AFL-CIO, works for all workers, union and non-union, at all levels of government. Thru lobbying and membership action, the IAM has a voice for labor we individually could never achieve. Do I agree with every position the IAM takes? Certainly not. Though I am a huge Second Amendment fan, I don't agree with the pro-Republican tilt the NRA takes, either. I rue that politics has polarized so much during my life, but it is the fact of the matter.

Unions shouldn't be in politics? Management is, and they are spending a boatload of company money (without shareholder consent) to end 40 hour workweeks, end overtime, hamstring OSHA, curtail FMLA, etc., etc. As the Founders saw the wisdom of checks and balances, who will check management, if not labor?

When this Administration wanted to empanel a PEB on United, the IAM could not only call on it's transportation department, but it's woodworkers, autoworkers and service workers to call on their congressmen to block such an action. They could call on AFL-CIO members not remotely related to UA for assistance.The IAM prevailed. AMFA/AGW/PFA has no such membership resources.

AMFA/AGW/PFA does not have the Winpisinger Center. The Winpisinger Center is a labor school for IAM members. Many of the courses are transferable as college credits. I can personally attest that the resources and instructors are first rate. The staff could make more money in the private sector, but the commitment they have to the labor movement is palpable and evident. I have nothing but the highest respect for their commitment and abilities.

AMFA/AGW/PFA does not have a Tom Buffenbarger. I have heard many of his speeches, read his works, and had a few opportunities to meet and talk with this man. His heart is in the right place. His head is in the right place. He has a job I am not remotely qualified to do, so I will support him the best I can. Not blind support, not heedless support. With my eyes wide open, seeing "warts and all."

 

[PITbull]

Nice post, great analogy.. Dio....wher''ve you been?

 

[Justaramper]

It will be impossible to support the AGW over the IAM. I can''t support individuals who ran an Internet BB {Big Picture} from 1996 to ??? and all they did was slander whomever they wanted and NEVER got involved with the process of negotiating a contract. It is easier to negotiate a contact in the breakroom & Internet BB. It is also easier to settle a grievance over the Internet. But the truth is they don''t have the ability to do this in the normal way {face to face with the company}

IAM is like a "bad wife", sometimes it''s cheaper to keep her...

 

[insp89]

I would like to throw my 2 cents worth on this IAM/AMFA thing. The major difference between these unions is that the IAM is an industrial union while AMFA is a trade union. The IAM negotiates with the -Power in Numbers- tactic,, while AMFA would rather negotiate a contract for each group.-[Even though as it stands today, The mechanics and utility classifications are bound together by law.]- Does any one out there have a problem on having a seperate contract for each group ? [ I've noticed that the pilots and flight attendants have their own unions.] I have become dis-satisified with the IAM in recent years. I have found at the [AGC ]level, the opinions and wishes of the membership fall on deaf ears. Also, the handling of the FORCE MAJEUR issue by the IAM was inexcusable. I had the misfortune of being -furloughed- out of seniority for several weeks while at the same time other members were called back WEEKS before I was. -Come to find out, it depended on which city you worked in. -Seems the AGC's could'nt pick up a phone and work out a plan that was identical for every member on -illegal furlough-. Another inexcusable move by the IAM is the -SECOND- vote on the same so-called contract. This is the sort of thing that happens in THIRD WORLD COUNTRIES,,just keep voting until the outcome is the way you want it. I'm still waiting for a labor group to STAND UP and take it to the judge. Now I realize that AMFA is NOT the answer to everything, I do see the IAM is declining while AMFA is rising.-Northwest, American Trans Air,Southwest, and we'll have to see what happens at UNITED.

 

[diogenes]

Actually, the IAM has separate contracts and chains of command at U for fleet service and the mechanics. Also separate contracts at UA for mechs, fleet and customer service.

Your take on AGC''s has some validity in my experience, and gets into my brief with ''slate'' voting. Why should they give a damn if you can''t replace them? On the other hand, there are a few that do right by the membership. It''s just a shame you can get two different outcomes, depending on which station you''re in.

I just don''t see AMFA/AGW/PFA doing any better. ALPA does everything AMFA claims. They represent one skilled craft. They have a boatload more money than any other union. And they, more than anyone else, can get management''s attention. They can work to the book, pull back on the throttle, firewall the throttle, or ground the fleet. Even the U mech strike didn''t ground the whole fleet - U maintained a skeleton schedule, and increased express flying. Yet ALPA got pimp slapped like everybody else. No one - AMFA, IAM, CWA - could have done any better since 9/11.

I used to wish we were CWA, along with customer service. But the CWA got roughly the same, and in a few instances, worse results than the IAM did during concessions.

Right now, it''s a tough time to be labor. With our backs to the wall, it''s time for unions to work together, and that''s just not AMFA''s agenda.

 

[insp89]

----------------
On 6/8/2003 10:56:29 PM diogenes wrote:

Actually, the IAM has separate contracts and chains of command at U for fleet service and the mechanics. Also separate contracts at UA for mechs, fleet and customer service.

Your take on AGC''s has some validity in my experience, and gets into my brief with ''slate'' voting. Why should they give a damn if you can''t replace them? On the other hand, there are a few that do right by the membership. It''s just a shame you can get two different outcomes, depending on which station you''re in.

I just don''t see AMFA/AGW/PFA doing any better. ALPA does everything AMFA claims. They represent one skilled craft. They have a boatload more money than any other union. And they, more than anyone else, can get management''s attention. They can work to the book, pull back on the throttle, firewall the throttle, or ground the fleet. Even the U mech strike didn''t ground the whole fleet - U maintained a skeleton schedule, and increased express flying. Yet ALPA got pimp slapped like everybody else. No one - AMFA, IAM, CWA - could have done any better since 9/11.

I used to wish we were CWA, along with customer service. But the CWA got roughly the same, and in a few instances, worse results than the IAM did during concessions.

Right now, it''s a tough time to be labor. With our backs to the wall, it''s time for unions to work together, and that''s just not AMFA''s agenda.

----------------​

diogenes, Thank you for your post,, I am aware that fleet service has a seperate contract. I am interested in seeing a seperate contract for utility and mechanics. The last I''ve heard, The IAM is not interested in seeing this happen. As I stated in my previous post, This will only happen thru a change in govermental law. I have talked with several utility friends of mine and they have no problem with this change. I find it interesting that while you agree with me on the [AGC] issue, you are content on keeping things status quo.. I used to think that at one time the membership could change this union around, I do not believe this is the case anymore......... We will never know for sure, But I believe AMFA would not have taken that second vote. I guess all we can do is watch Northwest and see how AMFA handles the upcoming concessions at that airline.........Question ? Since fleet service and mechanics have seperate contracts, Is it possible for one group to vote the IAM out while the other group votes to keep them ?.......One thing is for sure, We cannot change the past.. I think it''s time to get set up for the next round of negotiations.[2007,2008].......Just remember, the EMPLOYEES of this airline are the ones that are keeping this airline operating, NOT the $$$ 6 MILLION dollar suits.

 

[Mike W]

inspc89,
Yes,it is possible for one group to decertify and the other group remain in the IAM.Northwest did it.Their mechanics are AMFA and their ramp and customer service are IAM.As long as the contracts are separate they are dealt with as separate groups.

 

[oldiebutgoodie]

----------------
On 6/7/2003 820 PM diogenes wrote:

For those not in the know, AGW, which largely exists on paper, is a junior partner of AMFA. Interesting that for years, AMFA has stated it will only represent mechanics. Now, AMFA is seeking to represent fleet service, whom it previously scorned, as well as flight attendants. Who will be riding on who's coattails?

Let us take up the discontent with the IAM. As readers know, I have my differences with IAM operations. A little too top down, and way too hard to vote out current office holders - the infamous 'slate'. I have been upfront with my dissent on these matters, and currently reside atop the 'list'. That's ok, I knew what I was doing.

On the other hand, I do not advocate decertifying or replacing the IAM.

You know, I have had differences with my wife for 20 years. We understand we're a work in progress, not perfect. Part of the deal is staying and doing the hard work, rather than the easier course of running away.

I am unaware of any church out there that has a dogma or creed I 100% adhere to. Some days, the pews are full of hypocrites, or the preacher gets a little too political. Yet we attend, and God's work gets done, despite all of our shortcomings.

I have major issues with where the Hoover/McCarthy Republicans are taking this country, yet I am not seeking asylum elsewhere.

Say your kid comes to you with a broken bike. After a quick look, you determine the perfect, compleat tool is the 1/2 inch, 12 point, brand new Craftsman box end wrench in your toolbox. Alas, your mooching brother-in-law has 'borrowed' your toolbox yet again. You scrounge thru your junk drawer, and find a pair of rusted, guaranteed to slip and bust your knuckles, shoulda been thrown away, channel locks. Are you going to say, "kid, I don't have the perfect tool, so fugitaboutit", OR, are you going to spray some WD40 on the POS locks, bust your knuckles, supress the urge to swear (kid's nearby), and get the kid going again?

No human effort is perfect. If such an effort were achieved, they wouldn't let me in, anyway! 'Dance with the gal what brung ya' is pretty sage advice.

----------------​

dio, your metaphors fail. If you want to use the metaphor of the IAM being like a bad marriage then it should be of a wife that continually sleeps around on you, but that metaphor fails also in this case. But even then a wife that continually sleeps around is worthy of divorce.

I don't know what ultimately happened to the IAM but after reading all the post here and on the mechanic web site, I believe we all at least agree that the IAM continues to do a poor job of representation, even though they are losing members at alarming rates.

What I do know is that I once was an IAM represented mechanic at Northwest and like most of us I couldn't believe the IAM's arrogance and refusing to listen to the membership. It also po'd me that everytime I opened the star the IAM was always agreeing with management while at the same time never publically attacking the violations that the company has committed on the employees.

So myself and the majority of my co-workers exercised our right to change unions and voted in AMFA. It wasn't that we were looking to change unions, it was that we all knew that our relationship with the IAM had to come to an end.

Since the day AMFA got in, I felt that a tremendous burden was lifted because for the first time we didn't have to fight against our own union and the company.


After reading your rhetoric about AMFA in a few of your posts, I must say that you are far from correct. And my post is just my opinion too. But before I end this post I wanted to share a couple facts that can't be denied.

Why is it that AMFA has not lost one member to the IAM, even though members continue to leave the IAM for AMFA? Is it because the AMFA has done a poor unprofessional job? The facts indicate that the opposite is true.

Why is it that the IAM has continued to try to organize us back into the IAM and have never been successful? Because we already know the IAM and would never agree to that lower type of representation again.

Why is it that AMFA mechanics recently got pay raises at Alaska as well as here while IAM mechanics continue to slide well below industry standards? I will let you answer this one.

The overall answer to the above questions is because the AMFA has done an acceptable job of representing me. If or when AMFA sells us out then I'm sure we will exercise our choice to replace them but I seriously doubt that we would ever go back to the IAM over the better union options available to us. We know too much about the IAM and going back with them is unimaginable.

 

[diogenes]

Hi guys, and thank you for your insights.

insp89,

I don''t think the AGC''s and other district types would agree that I''m content with the status quo!

obg,

What I hoped my metaphors got across is I accept that all institutions are flawed, and we do our best with them. Obviously, there may be a time to cut the cord.

I think the thought your posts have in common is if the IAM is so good, and AMFA is so bad, why is the IAM nervous about the June 14th vote? A fair question, and from events I''ve seen recently, the IAM does not yet accept their fair share of responsibility for the situation. If that doesn''t change, they''re gonna lose more members.

On the other hand, AMFA may be jumping from the frying pan into the fire.

AMFA and I part company for two reasons. They are elitists, and history teaches us craft unions ultimately fail. ALPA has done for years what AMFA says they do, and anyone would have to agree ALPA took the same licks everyone else did post 9/11, and is STILL backing up. If they can''t get their act together vis a vis scope and ''express'' operations, (and I think they''re too arrogant and elitist to do so) ALPA will continue taking on water. The second is AMFA''s word is unreliable. They''ve preached from the jump they would only represent mech and related. Whither now fleet service and flight attendants? (hint: it''s about the cash, just like at IAM) If they''re so inconsistent, why should I believe anything they say?

Please keep the responses coming. I''m learning something, and I think we''ll all agree we all better off with a full discussion of the matter, and not rely on the pablum either AMFA or IAM is spooning out.

 

[oldiebutgoodie]

----------------
On 6/10/2003 2:55:51 PM diogenes wrote:

Hi guys, and thank you for your insights.

insp89,

I don''t think the AGC''s and other district types would agree that I''m content with the status quo!

obg,

What I hoped my metaphors got across is I accept that all institutions are flawed, and we do our best with them. Obviously, there may be a time to cut the cord.

I think the thought your posts have in common is if the IAM is so good, and AMFA is so bad, why is the IAM nervous about the June 14th vote? A fair question, and from events I''ve seen recently, the IAM does not yet accept their fair share of responsibility for the situation. If that doesn''t change, they''re gonna lose more members.

On the other hand, AMFA may be jumping from the frying pan into the fire.

AMFA and I part company for two reasons. They are elitists, and history teaches us craft unions ultimately fail. ALPA has done for years what AMFA says they do, and anyone would have to agree ALPA took the same licks everyone else did post 9/11, and is STILL backing up. If they can''t get their act together vis a vis scope and ''express'' operations, (and I think they''re too arrogant and elitist to do so) ALPA will continue taking on water. The second is AMFA''s word is unreliable. They''ve preached from the jump they would only represent mech and related. Whither now fleet service and flight attendants? (hint: it''s about the cash, just like at IAM) If they''re so inconsistent, why should I believe anything they say?

Please keep the responses coming. I''m learning something, and I think we''ll all agree we all better off with a full discussion of the matter, and not rely on the pablum either AMFA or IAM is spooning out.

----------------​

dio,
If I understand you correctly you are saying that AMFA is trying to represent ramp, flight attendants, and Pilots and thereby is defrauding its members? And you are basing it on an assumption that because the law firm that they contract with represents other work groups so therefore AMFA is guilty by association?
Let me suggest that it sounds like a stretch to me. Besides, it seems as though you contradict yourself as you then later call AMFA a true craft union.
Which is it in your mind, a craft union or a union that seeks to represent all. You can''t accuse it of being both.
(BTW, I disagree with you on your craft union comments and I''m sure the biggest craft unions who have millions of members like the teachers, carpenters, and others would side with me.)

Also, I have seen no concrete evidence that AMFA is affiliated with these other groups. Also AMFA''s constitution wouldn''t allow it. All I have seen is some literature put out by the IAM that tries to make a weak association between AMFA and other unions, and some are willing to take that as truth.

And by that same reasoning, is the IAM associated with companies and other organizations just because they use professionals that have other business clients?

 

[diogenes]

OBG,

Actually, AGW's website made for some fascinating reading. Somehow, unknown to me or any fleet folks I've spoken with, some U fleet service folks have given themselves some nice 'interim' titles, and decided amongst themselves, that of all the law firms in the land, Seham and etc., who coincidentally represent AMFA, is the right firm to represent us.

Where is the democracy AMFA or AGW is so proud of? Who nominated or voted for these folks? What discussions were held? Will they still hold office once they're certified, like the IAM did? Why is Sehan and company the right law firm? Who else does Sehan represent?

If AGW has no ties to AMFA, what organizational strength does AGW have? How much money do they have on hand? In what year will they be able to negotiate a new contract at U? Is there a possibility fleet service could lose union representation altogether?

These are just a few questions fleet service deserves answers to. 'We ain't the IAM' is a good attention-getter, but it's a long way from a deal-closer.

So I am saying AMFA, in a typically backdoor lawyer way (remember "that depends on what the meaning of 'is' is)is abandoning its claim of representing mechanics only, and forming subsidiaries.

And for the IAM powers-that be. Time to look in the mirror, instead of blaming the members. The IAM was pissing folks off BEFORE 9/11. Concessions just made it worse.

 

[insp89]

----------------
On 6/9/2003 9:40:07 PM Mike W wrote:

inspc89,
Yes,it is possible for one group to decertify and the other group remain in the IAM.Northwest did it.Their mechanics are AMFA and their ramp and customer service are IAM.As long as the contracts are separate they are dealt with as separate groups.

----------------​

Mike W. Thank You for the information.

 

[diogenes]

A Few Divisions of the Seham and McCormick Corporation



Technicians and Cleaners: Aircraft Mechanic Fraternal Association (AMFA)

Address:

67 Water Street (McCormick Corporate Headquarters)

Suite 208 A –

Laconia, NH 03246

www.amfanatl.org/Pages/12_Contacts/Contacts2.html



Pilots: The American Independent Cockpit Alliance (AICA)

Address:

67 Water Street (McCormick Corporate Headquarters)

Suite 208

Laconia, NH 03246

http://www.aicapilot.org/AICA_Membership.htm



Flight Attendants: the Professional flight Attendants Association (PFAA)

Address:

67 Water Street (McCormick Corporate Headquarters)

Suite 209

Laconia, NH 03246

www.pfaa.com/getinvolved/donations/bymail.asp



Fleet Service: Allied Ground Workers (AGW)

Law Firm:

Seham, Seham, Meltz and Peterson (AMFA’s law firm)

http://www.the-agw.org


----------------------------------------------------------

Just some more interesting info.

 

[UAL_TECH]

----------------
On 6/7/2003 820 PM diogenes wrote:

For those not in the know, AGW, which largely exists on paper, is a junior partner of AMFA. Interesting that for years, AMFA has stated it will only represent mechanics. Now, AMFA is seeking to represent fleet service, whom it previously scorned, as well as flight attendants. Who will be riding on who''s coattails? All of the subsidiaries, AMFA, AGW and PFA are represented by the law firm Seham and McCormick.

Let us take up the discontent with the IAM. As readers know, I have my differences with IAM operations. A little too top down, and way too hard to vote out current office holders - the infamous ''slate''. I have been upfront with my dissent on these matters, and currently reside atop the ''list''. That''s ok, I knew what I was doing.

On the other hand, I do not advocate decertifying or replacing the IAM.

You know, I have had differences with my wife for 20 years. We understand we''re a work in progress, not perfect. Part of the deal is staying and doing the hard work, rather than the easier course of running away.

I am unaware of any church out there that has a dogma or creed I 100% adhere to. Some days, the pews are full of hypocrites, or the preacher gets a little too political. Yet we attend, and God''s work gets done, despite all of our shortcomings.

I have major issues with where the Hoover/McCarthy Republicans are taking this country, yet I am not seeking asylum elsewhere.

Say your kid comes to you with a broken bike. After a quick look, you determine the perfect, compleat tool is the 1/2 inch, 12 point, brand new Craftsman box end wrench in your toolbox. Alas, your mooching brother-in-law has ''borrowed'' your toolbox yet again. You scrounge thru your junk drawer, and find a pair of rusted, guaranteed to slip and bust your knuckles, shoulda been thrown away, channel locks. Are you going to say, "kid, I don''t have the perfect tool, so fugitaboutit", OR, are you going to spray some WD40 on the POS locks, bust your knuckles, supress the urge to swear (kid''s nearby), and get the kid going again?

No human effort is perfect. If such an effort were achieved, they wouldn''t let me in, anyway! ''Dance with the gal what brung ya'' is pretty sage advice.

----------------​

Battered Wife Syndrome?.

UT

BTW: AMFA!!!