AMFA vs Idustrial Unions for elections of National Officers

[ThirdSeatHero]

Swamt,

What you have is Anomaly's opinion which I (as another former AMFA UAL member) find almost laughable.
Normally I wouldn't have bothered to respond to his unique interpretations of events at UAL, but as he mentioned me off handedly I thought I too should not let the same type of falsehoods and rhetoric that was sold to us by the ibt go unanswered.

As the AA AMFA organizing committee is already in touch with several other UAL mechanics around the system, I'm sure the AA mechanics will be seeing more of them as you may have already seen in some of there organizing meetings video. As such I'm sure that the truth of the matter will come out and it isn't the wild claims of "disorganized chaos" and "infighting between stations" that some here claim. AMFAs constitution has clear and unambiguous language on how individuals can be charged and recalled, and yes, this took place between some individual locals and in one case a National Officer. AMFAs procedures were followed and charges were either dismissed or in some cases the offending party was recalled, it most certainly wasn't "chaos", it was the accountability we expected from AMFA that we now are sorely missing in the teamsters.

You can be certain as the AA campaign progresses, and others like Anomaly try to rewrite history on the UAL campaign, there will be other UAL mechanics who will come forward with all the videos and flyers that the ibt produced during that period, and what you and all the other interested parties will discover is the teamsters sold themselves on 3 primary points - fear & smear on the NWA strike, promises of an early contract opener, and a double vesting pension.

TSH

 

[Anomaly]

This is the first time that you have better explained what you personally really thought why AMFA was removed from UAL. And all your reasons all point to the officers and represenatives that the membership voted in. What you guys needed at UAL was to replace the officers and represenatives not the representational union AMFA.

I disagree. In our unique situation coming out of bankruptcy and then merging, we needed exactly the type of resources we have now.

For the record, we did replace some representatives, but the damage was already done.

 

[WNMECH]

I appreciate your rational and well thought response, and while I do not entirely disagree, I believe you may not be seeing the point of MY argument either.

AMFA works for you, and that is great. But as a former member myself, I can honestly tell you it did NOT work in our situatioin. UAL was simply too big to be controlled with the AMFA system. It was not good at all. Like you, I feel I am repeating myself when I say the association structure just did not hlp us at UAL.

While you find open control, we saw nothing but disorganized chaos. There is a reason UAL mechanics decertified the association so quickly and it had nothing to do with what others on this board claim.

We never saw our reps, there was way too much infighting between the stations, and our Locals were disorganized and a source for political drama. Our officers were constantly looking for either scapegoats or credit. All the while, our HOSTILE company was cleaning up.

So maybe that is it? It is the company which offers a difference more than the union?

I am glad to hear how you percieved AMFA at UAL.
But I am sure there are two sides to that story.

When SWA voted in AMFA, we all wanted it. Everyone wanted the IBT gone.
It was amazing and built incredible unity among us.
Some people were worried what would happen while we built our local up and if we would have enough money to defend ourselves if the company tried to take advantage of that situation.
But we all wanted to be out from under the IBT.

There was no infighting, backstabbing, scapegoating, squabbling or sniping from the sidelines. Only unity in building up our new union.

Like I said, some people will never be able to represent themselves and others are just not ready.

I heard that at UAL certain groups were trying to tear down AMFA before it could even get going. But I was not there.

With everyone at SWA pulling the same way, it has been a joy to watch us grow and to see really good guys step up into leadership positions and work hard for a common goal.

Our local leaders have changed over the years but all have done good jobs for very little reward. The gradual progression of leaders has been orderly and no one ever stepped down in disgrace.

With that being said, I dont think it is the Company that made our AMFA locals successful.

It was because we did not fight with ourselves.
And the one thing we all had is we hated being under the teamsters boot.

Nothing says that AA mechanics cant have the same success or better results. But they have to be ready to work for it, not against it. Time will tell.

Just a few words on McCaskil / Bond. The process set up determining fair and equtable has not been tested enough or on enough cases. Nobody knows what fair and quotable is. Too many cases, such as yours, have been settled by vote rather than arbitration or court process. In these instances there is no case law to satisfy the question of fair and eqitable. It simply has not been defined by the courts.

Two groups at SWA tested it in arbitration with mixed results. But both SWA groups got better than DOH from arbitrators.
The dispatchers got a 4 year boost like us. And the other group (ramp) got a mixture of boosts for SWA and station specific protections for some at Airtran.

Some people on these boards have accused SWA employees of doing harm to all airline employees because we fought for more than DOH.
I believe just the opposite.
While DOH may be the fair way between most groups because their wages and benefits are similar,We have proven that DOH is not always fair and equitable to both sides. And because of that, ALL airline employees in future mergers can be sure that they to can get a fair deal in a SLI and not always be stuck with DOH or a staple while the other side gets a windfall.

The Teamster negotitating team did exactly as the rank and file desired even when this went against the best advise of the IBT lawyers and international representatives. At the end of the day, we all know what happend. The Teamsters did what any good union should and allowed the rank and file to decide through vote. They did not like it, but stuck by their former members without attempting to control them. Sound familiar?

To be fair to you, I thought the IBT would still force arbitration when they saw we were not going to budge on our 4 year boost.

To be fair to us, what were their options? They would have lost in arbitration and their members were losing money waiting.

After all his theatrics, I give the IBT lawyer credit for knowing when to fold them.

 

[WNMECH]

Swamt,

What you have is Anomaly's opinion which I (as another former AMFA UAL member) find almost laughable.
Normally I wouldn't have bothered to respond to his unique interpretations of events at UAL, but as he mentioned me off handedly I thought I too should not let the same type of falsehoods and rhetoric that was sold to us by the ibt go unanswered.

As the AA AMFA organizing committee is already in touch with several other UAL mechanics around the system, I'm sure the AA mechanics will be seeing more of them as you may have already seen in some of there organizing meetings video. As such I'm sure that the truth of the matter will come out and it isn't the wild claims of "disorganized chaos" and "infighting between stations" that some here claim. AMFAs constitution has clear and unambiguous language on how individuals can be charged and recalled, and yes, this took place between some individual locals and in one case a National Officer. AMFAs procedures were followed and charges were either dismissed or in some cases the offending party was recalled, it most certainly wasn't "chaos", it was the accountability we expected from AMFA that we now are sorely missing in the teamsters.

You can be certain as the AA campaign progresses, and others like Anomaly try to rewrite history on the UAL campaign, there will be other UAL mechanics who will come forward with all the videos and flyers that the ibt produced during that period, and what you and all the other interested parties will discover is the teamsters sold themselves on 3 primary points - fear & smear on the NWA strike, promises of an early contract opener, and a double vesting pension.

TSH

I knew there would be another side to the story.
Thank you for weighing in.
I should have read it before I posted.

 

[Anomaly]

I am glad to hear how you percieved AMFA at UAL.
But I am sure there are two sides to that story.

When SWA voted in AMFA, we all wanted it. Everyone wanted the IBT gone.
It was amazing and built incredible unity among us.
Some people were worried what would happen while we built our local up and if we would have enough money to defend ourselves if the company tried to take advantage of that situation.
But we all wanted to be out from under the IBT.

There was no infighting, backstabbing, scapegoating, squabbling or sniping from the sidelines. Only unity in building up our new union.

Like I said, some people will never be able to represent themselves and others are just not ready.

I heard that at UAL certain groups were trying to tear down AMFA before it could even get going. But I was not there.

Given! I will not dispute any of what you wrote above at all. There are two sides to every story, and there were those who's objective was to defeat AMFA from the very beginning. I was certainly NOT one of those people and like many, struggled to make AMFA work for us.

Unfortunately, the same can be said for the IBT. There are some very resourceful and intelligent people who have done nothing but try to sabotage the IBT since they took over representation. Have you considered that TSH could be one of these persons intent on seeing the IBT fail at any cost? He is, after all, very open on his disdain and hatred for the Teamsters. Do you think this was a recent opinion?

His explanation of the IBT at UAL simply does not add up. He creates a story that the only reason we switched was because the Teamsters lied. In essence, he is calling his fellow mechanics a bunch of morons who would believe the babble of an organizer/politician.

The UAL mechanics are not morons. We have taken on Steven Wolf and the Coniston Partners. We fought a hostile Board of Directors and the Pilots even in the face of a temporary restraining order, and came out on top. We vote NO on just about every first contract and as a group, stand together for the most part. What TSH does not tell you, is many loyal amfa followers and representatives also switched sides and still represent their groups now as Teamsters.

If the stories he said were true, why then have you not seen an active drive at UAL? Why are so many of the UA AMFA pages that were so prominent just a couple of years ago, now suddenly quiet? Why are we still Teamsters?

I wish, in BOTH changes of unions we have had, that we could have been more like the SWA group and worked together to create a stronger membership. However, you would need to know a little more about the United mechanics to understand us as a group. The amount of deception and losses we have endured over the years can only be equaled by possibly this AA group.

I'll spare you the violins and skip to the fact that all our losses have made us a skittish group. Our trust is not easily or quickly earned. We suspiciosly size up our expectations against results, or we move on. Nothing against anyone else, but AMFA quickly showed us they would not work at UAL. But the Teamsters seem to be showing us another side.

TSH promises more UAL employees across the system who will come forward to support the AA mechanics switch to AMFA. I bet I can guess who these people will be. Here at UAL, we all know exactly who they are. Like TSH, they are ignored more and more at our various work group and stations. Most of us are tired of listening to them, so it is only fitting they move on to another airline.

No offense, but I do not wiash them on anyone.

Two groups at SWA tested it in arbitration with mixed results. But both SWA groups got better than DOH from arbitrators.
The dispatchers got a 4 year boost like us. And the other group (ramp) got a mixture of boosts for SWA and station specific protections for some at Airtran.

Some people on these boards have accused SWA employees of doing harm to all airline employees because we fought for more than DOH.
I believe just the opposite.
While DOH may be the fair way between most groups because their wages and benefits are similar,We have proven that DOH is not always fair and equitable to both sides. And because of that, ALL airline employees in future mergers can be sure that they to can get a fair deal in a SLI and not always be stuck with DOH or a staple while the other side gets a windfall.


To be fair to you, I thought the IBT would still force arbitration when they saw we were not going to budge on our 4 year boost.

To be fair to us, what were their options? They would have lost in arbitration and their members were losing money waiting.

After all his theatrics, I give the IBT lawyer credit for knowing when to fold them.

You seem so positive that SWA would have prevailed in arbitration but legal cases are very often unpredictable. There are not enough legal precedence in the case with the mechanics to convince me that there would be a sure thing one way or the other.

The Dispatcher opinion, for instance, was a shocker for me in that I was betting that the arbitrator would have gone with date of hire. Both contracts eluded more to DOH than any other solution and it seemed like this would be the more reasonable opinion. It just goes to show that not everything is as it seems. Even the strongest arguments could go the other way. And in this case, it did.

FYI; The IBT did not force arbitration because the AT members did not wish them to.

 

[WNMECH]

Given! I will not dispute any of what you wrote above at all. There are two sides to every story, and there were those who's objective was to defeat AMFA from the very beginning. I was certainly NOT one of those people and like many, struggled to make AMFA work for us.

Unfortunately, the same can be said for the IBT. There are some very resourceful and intelligent people who have done nothing but try to sabotage the IBT since they took over representation. Have you considered that TSH could be one of these persons intent on seeing the IBT fail at any cost? He is, after all, very open on his disdain and hatred for the Teamsters. Do you think this was a recent opinion?

His explanation of the IBT at UAL simply does not add up. He creates a story that the only reason we switched was because the Teamsters lied. In essence, he is calling his fellow mechanics a bunch of morons who would believe the babble of an organizer/politician.

The UAL mechanics are not morons. We have taken on Steven Wolf and the Coniston Partners. We fought a hostile Board of Directors and the Pilots even in the face of a temporary restraining order, and came out on top. We vote NO on just about every first contract and as a group, stand together for the most part. What TSH does not tell you, is many loyal amfa followers and representatives also switched sides and still represent their groups now as Teamsters.

If the stories he said were true, why then have you not seen an active drive at UAL? Why are so many of the UA AMFA pages that were so prominent just a couple of years ago, now suddenly quiet? Why are we still Teamsters?

I wish, in BOTH changes of unions we have had, that we could have been more like the SWA group and worked together to create a stronger membership. However, you would need to know a little more about the United mechanics to understand us as a group. The amount of deception and losses we have endured over the years can only be equaled by possibly this AA group.

I'll spare you the violins and skip to the fact that all our losses have made us a skittish group. Our trust is not easily or quickly earned. We suspiciosly size up our expectations against results, or we move on. Nothing against anyone else, but AMFA quickly showed us they would not work at UAL. But the Teamsters seem to be showing us another side.

TSH promises more UAL employees across the system who will come forward to support the AA mechanics switch to AMFA. I bet I can guess who these people will be. Here at UAL, we all know exactly who they are. Like TSH, they are ignored more and more at our various work group and stations. Most of us are tired of listening to them, so it is only fitting they move on to another airline.

No offense, but I do not wiash them on anyone.



You seem so positive that SWA would have prevailed in arbitration but legal cases are very often unpredictable. There are not enough legal precedence in the case with the mechanics to convince me that there would be a sure thing one way or the other.

The Dispatcher opinion, for instance, was a shocker for me in that I was betting that the arbitrator would have gone with date of hire. Both contracts eluded more to DOH than any other solution and it seemed like this would be the more reasonable opinion. It just goes to show that not everything is as it seems. Even the strongest arguments could go the other way. And in this case, it did.

FYI; The IBT did not force arbitration because the AT members did not wish them to.

So we have broken it down to the fundamental differences between our opinions without insults.

I continue to believe the AMFA model of freedom to govern yourself, transparency and leadership accountability among other things.
And you believe the IBT is better.

I believe the arbitrator got it exactly right and saw one side about to receive a windfall while the other side got their seniority deluded. While you disagree.

I think people can make up there minds on who to represent them without the propaganda and insults that have been flying around here, but we all have emotions.

I will continue to advocate for my position that a free and open union may have a messy start-up, but the personal reward of self governance at the end of the day is well worth it.

While you opinions are 180 degrees from mine, I hope you won't post untrue things just to advance your opinions.

People see things differently but inflammatory statements dont advance anyone's cause in my opinion. When I have done it it has just been for amusement. To clarify,I don't think I have posted anything untrue, only inflammatory.

I will try not to do it on the AA forum. Because I really feel for these people and their situation.

 

[Airmech737]

Not so fast! There is a letter out there from the National Director of AMFA that there are eight protests. Reports from several individuals in the know was the winning candidates more than likely violated union campaign election rules and LMRDA and federal laws. It is a shame that those that want to help the Association have to deal with those that want to manipulate the Association. There are laws covering these violations for a reason and at least in AMFA, one has the opportunity to protest and bring this such a maniplation to the memberships' attention.

Now I guess we will see if AMFA is truly different than other unions.

 

[Anomaly]

Not so fast! There is a letter out there from the National Director of AMFA that there are eight protests. Reports from several individuals in the know was the winning candidates more than likely violated union campaign election rules and LMRDA and federal laws. It is a shame that those that want to help the Association have to deal with those that want to manipulate the Association. There are laws covering these violations for a reason and at least in AMFA, one has the opportunity to protest and bring this such a maniplation to the memberships' attention.

Now I guess we will see if AMFA is truly different than other unions.

Or this could be the ugly side of politics? Violating election rules could be anything from ballot tampering, to sending a single campaign fax using a union purchased machine. The rules have gotten so ridicules in an order to keep it all "fair" it is hard to keep things straight.

I am not defending anything, nor do I want to blow the petty stuff beyond what it should be.


I am curious what the infraction is?

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

Given! I will not dispute any of what you wrote above at all. There are two sides to every story, and there were those who's objective was to defeat AMFA from the very beginning. I was certainly NOT one of those people and like many, struggled to make AMFA work for us.

Unfortunately, the same can be said for the IBT. There are some very resourceful and intelligent people who have done nothing but try to sabotage the IBT since they took over representation. Have you considered that TSH could be one of these persons intent on seeing the IBT fail at any cost? He is, after all, very open on his disdain and hatred for the Teamsters. Do you think this was a recent opinion?

Your musings on the foundation of my opinion while certainly possible are in fact wrong.

The reality of membership in a union -any union- is that the majority decides. While I most certainly fought against the ibt raid on UAL, the majority of the membership decided to switch representation.

Contrary to your assertions I was not attempting to sabotage the teamsters from the start. My position then was simply wait and see. While I most certainly had serious doubts about the teamsters campaign promises of representation, "IF" I was wrong, then the membership would benefit.

I took an active part in the union, attended the monthly craft meetings and voiced my opinion to my representatives.

All that said, it became quickly obvious the type of organization the teamsters were and the promises from the campaign were just that....promises. Which are now broken promises.

It was at that time I joined with other like minded mechanics in the drives to remove the teamsters from UAL.

His explanation of the IBT at UAL simply does not add up. He creates a story that the only reason we switched was because the Teamsters lied. In essence, he is calling his fellow mechanics a bunch of morons who would believe the babble of an organizer/politician.

The UAL mechanics are not morons. We have taken on Steven Wolf and the Coniston Partners. We fought a hostile Board of Directors and the Pilots even in the face of a temporary restraining order, and came out on top. We vote NO on just about every first contract and as a group, stand together for the most part. What TSH does not tell you, is many loyal amfa followers and representatives also switched sides and still represent their groups now as Teamsters.

Spare me your oh so typical ibt tortured reasoning, being lied to doesn't make one a "moron".

As I have stated in previous posts, the ibt campaigned primarily on the fear of NWA, the promises of early contract openers, and the double vesting pension.

The UAL mechanics are not "morons" because they wanted to re-open the CBA early.

The UAL mechanics are not "morons" because they wanted a double vesting pension.

The ibt played on the hopes and fears of the UAL mechanics just as they are trying to do at American with many of the same "promises" they used at UAL.


As for the many AMFA members who are indeed serving in the ibt, Anomaly conveniantly leaves out that several former teamsters representatives/organizers have left to join the drives to remove the ibt.

If the stories he said were true, why then have you not seen an active drive at UAL? Why are so many of the UA AMFA pages that were so prominent just a couple of years ago, now suddenly quiet? Why are we still Teamsters?

There are active drives at UAL.

The pause is simply waiting out the amalgamation process. Both IAM & AMFA drives started before UAL committed to the CAL merger, while I don't have access the the higher echelons decision making process it stands to reason to pause at this time,what sense does it make to try to complete a card drive now on s-UAL only to have to re-run another drive after amalgamation is complete?

Besides, due to the current UAL-CAL SLI soap opera, alot more cards are coming in from the CAL side.

TSH promises more UAL employees across the system who will come forward to support the AA mechanics switch to AMFA. I bet I can guess who these people will be. Here at UAL, we all know exactly who they are. Like TSH, they are ignored more and more at our various work group and stations. Most of us are tired of listening to them, so it is only fitting they move on to another airline.

If I and other like minded mechanics are being "ignored" I find it amusing I keep popping up in your posts......and of course there are the cards that keep coming in, while you may be ignoring the drives......others are listening.

 

[Anomaly]

So we have broken it down to the fundamental differences between our opinions without insults.

I continue to believe the AMFA model of freedom to govern yourself, transparency and leadership accountability among other things.
And you believe the IBT is better.

I believe the arbitrator got it exactly right and saw one side about to receive a windfall while the other side got their seniority deluded. While you disagree.

I think people can make up there minds on who to represent them without the propaganda and insults that have been flying around here, but we all have emotions.

I will continue to advocate for my position that a free and open union may have a messy start-up, but the personal reward of self governance at the end of the day is well worth it.

While you opinions are 180 degrees from mine, I hope you won't post untrue things just to advance your opinions.

People see things differently but inflammatory statements dont advance anyone's cause in my opinion. When I have done it it has just been for amusement. To clarify,I don't think I have posted anything untrue, only inflammatory.

I will try not to do it on the AA forum. Because I really feel for these people and their situation.

One other difference is the negotiations and your claim that only AMFA has an open process for all members to participate. I saw a recent update and noticed you have very few on your negotiation team. 5 total which was made up of 2 directors and 3 airline reps.

The Teamsters on the other hand are also in negotiations at UAL and according to a recent bulletin; there are 13 rank and file voting members on this committee. These 13 will be the only ones who vote to either accept article or to take a TA back to the membership for full vote. The negotiation team is selected in accordance to the bylaws of the Local they represent. Some are elected, some chosen by the executive board. All are shop stewards or members in good standing

In addition to these 13, There are nearly a dozen Business Agents assisting and adding support and feedback for the many other stations and areas they represent who might not be personally involved in the negotiations. These BA's represent a wider area and together cover the whole system to be sure everyone has a chance to be heard. If you are from a smaller station and do not have a direct representative on the negotiation team the BA's are responsible for making sure your concerns are considered also.

The group also includes 4 Airline Division Representatives from the international and a lead attorney who is present for every meeting.

BA's, Airline Reps, nor attorneys are allowed to vote on issues. Only the 13 rank and file members.

You might consider the size of UAL and dismiss this as naturally larger than SWA. But consider Horizon Air. With about 400 mechanics system wide, their last negotiating committee consisted of 7 rank and file members who made up the voting party.

There was also two former mechanic Business Agents, and 1 Airline Division Rep and an attorney.

In both cases, the rank and file was present without any lost time for every meeting. They did not have to worry about traveling on their own time or deal with costs of attending negotiations. The Locals picks up all the expenses.

With an observer system, sure the rank and file gets to listen, but they do not participate, and must pay their own way.

Just another something to consider.

As an aside, I am much happier showing respect to the mechanic members who make up AMFA rather than dissing your organization as a retaliation for a slanderous comment towards my union. As your last many posts have been respectful, so have mine. I am more than willing to keep this up even when we disagree.

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

System wide, rank & file mechanic negotiators, BAs, Airline Division reps, attorneys....

Each and every one appointed.

 

[WNMECH]

Or this could be the ugly side of politics? Violating election rules could be anything from ballot tampering, to sending a single campaign fax using a union purchased machine. The rules have gotten so ridicules in an order to keep it all "fair" it is hard to keep things straight.

I am not defending anything, nor do I want to blow the petty stuff beyond what it should be.


I am curious what the infraction is?

The alleged infractions apparently include, but may not be limited to, the posting of campaign flyers for one group of candidates on company property. By the candidates or supporters of them.

It will be checked out.

I will just vote again if a new election us called.

 

[1AA]

Or this could be the ugly side of politics? Violating election rules could be anything from ballot tampering, to sending a single campaign fax using a union purchased machine. The rules have gotten so ridicules in an order to keep it all "fair" it is hard to keep things straight.

I am not defending anything, nor do I want to blow the petty stuff beyond what it should be.


I am curious what the infraction is?

The infraction is appoint these idiots to avoid fines and scrutiny like they do in the TWU, IBT and the IAM. Good thing is you will not see appointed individuals in any position at AMFA unless it is a temporary fill in until an election is held.

 

[WNMECH]

System wide, rank & file mechanic negotiators, BAs, Airline Division reps, attorneys....

Each and every one appointed.

All of our AMFA committee members and representatives are elected, accountable and can be recalled.

My experience under the IBT was that negotiations were secret, with the company and unelected IBT selected negotiators behind closed doors.
When they brought something out to us, they sounded just like the company "this is the best you are gonna get" .

To Anomaly,
At some negotiations, observers were paid for their time.
But generally you are correct that observers are responsible for themselves if they want to attend. But they DO participate in they process, not at the table directly, but during caucuses when the other side is out of the room. The observers opinions are used just like anyone else's. And the names of those who do attend are posted and are available to be contacted by any member if they want an unfiltered view of what went on.

The IBT kept us in the dark always. The lack of transparency was stifling and led to the distrust of the IBT and the deals they presented to us.

The openness of the AMFA system is a huge breath of fresh air to those of us who voted out the teamsters.

 

[Overspeed]

So being the senior man at the worst paying job is your objective?

If SWA were to buy AA tomorrow I'd gladly accept being stapled in exchange for a $30,000 a year payraise. The Airtran guys hit the Jackpot, now they are complianing because there's no cherry on top.

When EAL workers were forced to change companies how much seniority did they get to carry? When Pan Am workers were forced to change companies how much seniority did they carry? Do you think its a good thing to allow the companies actions to determine the seniority of workers in this industry?

You work for seniority, I work for money.

Without the Baker Letter it will be nice to see you shut your mouth and work with the people you screwed over. You can tell them about your plans for world domination while you "work" leveling a tray table on BC.