AMP vs TWU which one is more Democratic?
- Thread starter odie01
- Start date
OP
- May 11, 2010
- 1,321
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- Thread Starter
- #2
Look at this site. Yah it's funny in a way, but factual, and should enlighten you on how our dues are spent!
http://www.representationnow.com/index.htm
Ken MacTiernan
Veteran
The represent web site is great. Nothing like humor to drive home facts.
AMP is more democratic then the twu hands down. If the twu was so democratic why can't the twu faithful answer the simple question of why twu int. representatives ARE NOT elected and why they DO NOT take pay cuts when the membership does?
GO AMP!
AMP is more democratic then the twu hands down. If the twu was so democratic why can't the twu faithful answer the simple question of why twu int. representatives ARE NOT elected and why they DO NOT take pay cuts when the membership does?
GO AMP!
OP
- May 11, 2010
- 1,321
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- Thread Starter
- #4
Ken,
If our International leadership can not be voted in, or voted out/recalled, by the membership, what good is this union? Are the International TWU guys mechanics, that come back to the floor when they are done with their term? These people have all the power and money, yet we can't control them.
This is weird..........not a union to me. If you take pride in your work, consider yourself skilled, and want to be part of a skilled trade union, please get with an AMP organizer. Go to http://www.ampnational.org/ click on contacts, and email or call the rep at your base. Don't sell yourself, or our trade short !!!!!!!
If our International leadership can not be voted in, or voted out/recalled, by the membership, what good is this union? Are the International TWU guys mechanics, that come back to the floor when they are done with their term? These people have all the power and money, yet we can't control them.
This is weird..........not a union to me. If you take pride in your work, consider yourself skilled, and want to be part of a skilled trade union, please get with an AMP organizer. Go to http://www.ampnational.org/ click on contacts, and email or call the rep at your base. Don't sell yourself, or our trade short !!!!!!!
How do the AMP organizers feel about separate contracts ad splitting line and O/H? There have been many posts through out these threads on Line guys wanting a separate contract.
TWU informer
Veteran
- Nov 4, 2003
- 7,550
- 3,767
I am not speaking on behalf of or as an AMP Organizer, but I will give my two cents.
Keep on dividing the Union up into pieces boys. Then you can keep complaining how weak it is while you favor busting it up.
There is No Hope for this profession or this Union. Everyone is out for themselves while blaming others. And you wonder why I voted Yes? I nearly had mine Brother!
That is precisely the reason to have separate contracts, OH won't be upset with line pay they don't get, and line won't be upset with OH willing to take less money to maintain their life style. We will be negotiating for what our individual needs are.
I would prefer to have the SWA contract, take the money and invest for your own retirement instead of being dependent on a pension from AA, who might turn it over to the PBGC in the future anyway. Owens says it's cheaper for AA to do their own OH so there is no reason to worry about the scope clause, and I believe he also said that SWA is starting to do some of their own OH. Take a lessen from the Tea Party movement and be less dependent on government/company and more self reliant. A SWA contract would do that for us.
Sorry this was off the thread subject, but I believe that the TWU has no accountability to us therefore I think they are more like a socialist operation rather then elected organization.
I'm confused why you think that there's strength in numbers. There certainly isn't high pay in numbers. If a large workgroup meant high pay, then AA's AMTs wouldn't be so poorly paid - after all, AA has more AMTs than any other airline in the USA. AA's AMT pay is near the bottom of the industry.
UPS has just over 1,000 AMTs and they have made much more money than you for many years. WN has but 2,488 maintenance personnel (about one-fourth the number at AA) and yet their pay has outpaced yours for a long time. Same thing at B6 and FL. AMTs at all four of those airlines make more money than you yet all four have very few mechanics - all of them are line maintenance. AA has far more mechanics than all four of those airlines combined.
OP
- May 11, 2010
- 1,321
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- Thread Starter
- #10
As an ex-line guy now working in OH, I would disagree with seperate contracts, but would like to see a taxi/runup premium for line guys and the mechanics in OH that run. No need for seperate contracts, and no more wedges in future contracts. Our jobs are technical and equally inportant on the line, and in OH, we don't need to be divided any more than we are. Oh yea, just because I feel this way, and I am an AMP organizer, this is my opinion. If and when AMP is instated, it will be up to the membership to decide what is best, thats how a true union works.
I assume that a line person main priority is pay. Would it be fair for a line mechanic in Tulsa or Dallas (about the same cost of living) make the same as a line mechanic in New York, Los Angeles or even Chicago? I'm an O/H guy, and would support more money for those living in those high cost of living cities. Would separate contracts make it harder for a mechanic to transfer between the line and O/H? What kind of wording would there be if TUL laid off, and those affected wanted to transfer to the line? Like odie1 said "If and when AMP is instated, it will be up to the membership to decide what is best, thats how a true union works".
Guess I should also have asked how the die-hard TWU folks feel also.
OP
- May 11, 2010
- 1,321
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- Thread Starter
- #12
News & Happenings
Update 11-23-2010
With 365 days in a year there are some things that are enjoyed and celebrated only once throughout that calendar. Holidays, birthdays and anniversaries are a few of these special occasions. But there is one thing that should be enjoyed and appreciated every day of the year and that is true democracy. With the twu we do not have the opportunity to do this. Why? The answer is because the twu is NOT democratic!
But rest assured that while our craft and class is on the job during the holidays, birthdays and anniversaries the twu international representatives are at home enjoying time with their families while receiving SIX FIGURE salaries! The best part about these international representatives is that YOU cannot vote them into or out of office.
We pay hard earned union dues for fair representation in defending our craft and class but we do not receive this service. With 365 days in a year democracy is nowhere in sight within the twu international. So why do we still pay them to live the good life while we struggle to make ends meet? Have these twu international representatives lost any holidays or weeks of vacation? Have they lost double time or holiday pay? Do the efforts of these twu international representatives ever affect themselves directly?
Democracy is something that should be in our possession 365 days a year! Accountability is something that should be in our possession 365 days a year! The twu looks at democracy and accountability as something that is foreign and caustic to their very survival.
So while we endure less democracy, accountability, holidays, birthdays and anniversaries with the remainder of 2010 and look to more of the same in the future ask yourself is this is what you want to pay for? If you wish for a better future then sign an AMP Authorization card. If you wish for a future that includes having National and Local elected officials living under the same contract language that they negotiate for you then sign an AMP Authorization card.
On behalf of the AMP Organizing Committee we wish you all a safe Holiday Season!
GO AMP!
Update 11-23-2010
With 365 days in a year there are some things that are enjoyed and celebrated only once throughout that calendar. Holidays, birthdays and anniversaries are a few of these special occasions. But there is one thing that should be enjoyed and appreciated every day of the year and that is true democracy. With the twu we do not have the opportunity to do this. Why? The answer is because the twu is NOT democratic!
But rest assured that while our craft and class is on the job during the holidays, birthdays and anniversaries the twu international representatives are at home enjoying time with their families while receiving SIX FIGURE salaries! The best part about these international representatives is that YOU cannot vote them into or out of office.
We pay hard earned union dues for fair representation in defending our craft and class but we do not receive this service. With 365 days in a year democracy is nowhere in sight within the twu international. So why do we still pay them to live the good life while we struggle to make ends meet? Have these twu international representatives lost any holidays or weeks of vacation? Have they lost double time or holiday pay? Do the efforts of these twu international representatives ever affect themselves directly?
Democracy is something that should be in our possession 365 days a year! Accountability is something that should be in our possession 365 days a year! The twu looks at democracy and accountability as something that is foreign and caustic to their very survival.
So while we endure less democracy, accountability, holidays, birthdays and anniversaries with the remainder of 2010 and look to more of the same in the future ask yourself is this is what you want to pay for? If you wish for a better future then sign an AMP Authorization card. If you wish for a future that includes having National and Local elected officials living under the same contract language that they negotiate for you then sign an AMP Authorization card.
On behalf of the AMP Organizing Committee we wish you all a safe Holiday Season!
GO AMP!
Lower seniority Line AMT's may want to take note that separate contracts may be detrimental in that high seniority Base AMT's would be looking to transfer if the Line pay vs. Base pay differential gets to the point to make it worthwhile. I am only speaking for the AMT's I know here at AFW. Transferring from AFW to DFW isn't that big of a deal, but with Tulsa mechs, different ballgame. One thing is for sure, it seems that currently there are plenty within our own ranks that want to fracture/separate/divide us, where are the TWU voices crying out for unity?
Hopeful
Veteran
- Dec 21, 2002
- 5,998
- 347
I must say i agree with FWAAA. The strength in numbers theory went out the window with deregulation.
Whether people agree or not, the fact remains that the company will always use the "well, we do our own in house overhauls and that's why we can't pay you guys what UPS and SWA mechanics make....etc, etc,etc"
But I have yet to actually hear the company make the statement that they would pay us UPS and/or SWA wages if things were different...
It might not be a big deal to go from AFW to DFW how about AFW to JFK, ORD, LAX, SFO, BOS. Take a look at the transfer list to DFW, a lot of seniority want to go to DFW. Now how many guys want to uproot their families to go to those high cost of living cities? Not to mention selling their house's in Texas or Oklahoma. Forget about commuting some days the stby list to DFW from ORD is over 100 people long, and then you will be competing against the flight crews that commute from DFW and all the flight crews from all over that have to do annual training at DFW.
The big reason I want separate contracts is that a poster from AFW forgot his name says he will do anything to keep his day shift weekends off. I'm not willing to take less money so you can be off on the holidays and weekends. That certianly is not a strike issue for line mechanics (I don't care that you WERE a line mechanic), that is why we need separate contracts. Hopefully AMP will let us take a vote on separate contracts, but most likely what will happen is that the AMP organizers won't even bring it up for a vote. The tech guys have a separate contract from ours and they voted it in, and are enjoying a pay raise that we won't get for another couple of years I fear.
What I hope happens is that we vote in the SWA contract even if that means giving up our scope clause. Bob Owens says it's cheaper for AA to do our own OH, so the scope clause is a mute point. Going by Bob's info.
