APFA Labor cost analysis

[eolesen]

As eolesen has stated before, for this reason FF's like AA for the frequent opportunities to be upgraded. Untill the union is 100% in charge of those decisions, then we can talk.

Uh, no. I don't think I have ever said that.

What I've said is AA can generate a revenue premium *because* they have the seats to sell at retail prices, and that selling two or three incremental J seats does a lot more for the bottom line than six or ten incremental Y seats. I don't disagree that the ability to get an upgrade is nice, and may influence some travelers. But it's not an argument I'd use to justify taking AA or Eagle via DFW vs. a nonstop on DL or CO.

 

[Imjustsayin]

I see that all airlines use, at some time or another, some analysis of costs spread across the number of seats that they fly. But it can't be that those costs can be managed soley by staffing decsions, can it?

 

[Bob Owens]

IFE and new planes can also justify charging a revenue premium. Look around, and you'll see cases where Virgin America's fares are higher than AA's. AA can try and compete based on price and loyalty programs instead of their product, but they only win price sensitive travelers and mileage whores, and that's not where the real money is...

Hmm, I thought people just look for the lowest fares?
I could care less what they spend their money on as long as I get what I deserve. The problem is that the company is spending money all over the place then using that as an excuse to demand that we pay for it through concessions.

 

[Bob Owens]

IFE and new planes bring customers. More money in your pocket does not.

More money in my pocket makes it more likely that your flight wont be delayed or cancelled.

 

[Bob Owens]

You just never take any number thrown out by the company without supporting documentation. In 1999 when we were in contract negotiations the company told the APFA that crew meals would cost 18 million dollars a year. The union said "prove it" and show us how you came up with this figure. The next session the company backed off that figure and we ended up getting crew meals...which of course were taken away in 2003.

I agree 100%. Over here at our Negotiations every number thats ever been thrown at us by the company has been taken as Gospell. Whenever I challenged them the International guys would jump up in defense of those numbers, even when they later turn out to be false (ie the dock plan).

 

[Bob Owens]

I don't think I have never said that.

That means that you think you said it.

 

[Imjustsayin]

I agree 100%. Over here at our Negotiations every number thats ever been thrown at us by the company has been taken as Gospell. Whenever I challenged them the International guys would jump up in defense of those numbers, even when they later turn out to be false (ie the dock plan).

I hear the TWU and the Flight Attendant union constantly commenting about American's "numbers". There are plenty of industry experts out there that can solve that mystery. There is no doubt American Arilines labor cost are high. That's not the question. I'm just waiting to see what Americn and Its unions are going to do about it. AA blaming the unions is not the answer.

 

[IORFA]

Uh, no. I don't think I have ever said that.

What I've said is AA can generate a revenue premium *because* they have the seats to sell at retail prices, and that selling two or three incremental J seats does a lot more for the bottom line than six or ten incremental Y seats. I don't disagree that the ability to get an upgrade is nice, and may influence some travelers. But it's not an argument I'd use to justify taking AA or Eagle via DFW vs. a nonstop on DL or CO.

Sorry, it might have been MAH... I just know that I have read that argument on here before.

 

[umpieumkn]

My suggestion is:

Hold all future negotiations on a S80, out on the tarmac, with no APU. State that the meeting will start at 8:00 AM, but please be there 1 hr ahead of time (without pay) to "get ready".

The meeting finally starts at 11:00 AM (sorry...you didn't get paid for those 3 hrs because the door wasn't closed).

Now that the door is closed and the plane is completely full with both comapny and union officials (with some on the jumpseats).......the negotiations can begin....with 4 bottles of water, no snacks on board, smelly lavs that will eventually need emptying, but we can't do that as long as you're on the tarmac.

Oh yeah...and you might want to lower the shades to keep the a/c "cool".....and open the air vents. Oh wait. Forget that....there's no APU, remember? Some of you may have to use a flashlight as some of the overhead lights are out, but they've been placarded. And...some of the seat will not recline. They've also been placarded.

No smoking, please.

Should someone suffer from heat exhaustion....DO NOT USE DRY ICE (it will have melted by now, anyway). The water from the melted wet ice will work just fine.

Please do not place any excess trash in the lavs or galleys. Those are not FAA designated spots. Just take it home with you.

And....please make sure you're in complete pollyester uniform. You may bring in-flight (and I use that word loosely) shoes.

I only wish we could throw in a crying baby, someone that's had too much to drink, a family of 8 who all want to sit together, etc...

Oh yeah.....and remember to clean the plane before you leave.....without pay, of course.

The only ones who will have the advantage are the union officials from APA and APFA who have at some time or another experienced that living hell. If they have flown in the recent past, that is.

Maybe that will push negotiations along more quickly........

 

[Imjustsayin]

My suggestion is:

Hold all future negotiations on a S80, out on the tarmac, with no APU. State that the meeting will start at 8:00 AM, but please be there 1 hr ahead of time (without pay) to "get ready".

The meeting finally starts at 11:00 AM (sorry...you didn't get paid for those 3 hrs because the door wasn't closed).

Now that the door is closed and the plane is completely full with both comapny and union officials (with some on the jumpseats).......the negotiations can begin....with 4 bottles of water, no snacks on board, smelly lavs that will eventually need emptying, but we can't do that as long as you're on the tarmac.

Oh yeah...and you might want to lower the shades to keep the a/c "cool".....and open the air vents. Oh wait. Forget that....there's no APU, remember? Some of you may have to use a flashlight as some of the overhead lights are out, but they've been placarded. And...some of the seat will not recline. They've also been placarded.

No smoking, please.

Should someone suffer from heat exhaustion....DO NOT USE DRY ICE (it will have melted by now, anyway). The water from the melted wet ice will work just fine.

Please do not place any excess trash in the lavs or galleys. Those are not FAA designated spots. Just take it home with you.

And....please make sure you're in complete pollyester uniform. You may bring in-flight (and I use that word loosely) shoes.

I only wish we could throw in a crying baby, someone that's had too much to drink, a family of 8 who all want to sit together, etc...

Oh yeah.....and remember to clean the plane before you leave.....without pay, of course.

The only ones who will have the advantage are the union officials from APA and APFA who have at some time or another experienced that living hell. If they have flown in the recent past, that is.

Maybe that will push negotiations along more quickly........

I see a popped slide and 2 beers in someone's future....

 

[umpieumkn]

I see a popped slide and 2 beers in someone's future....

Not at all. I don't like beer. Just trying to throw in a little humor.... I still love this job....and the company. I've been out there working in all sorts of fields and this is still, by far, the best job I've ever had. I'm sure you agree that you have to find the humor in things every once in a while.

 

[Imjustsayin]

Not at all. I don't like beer. Just trying to throw in a little humor.... I still love this job....and the company. I've been out there working in all sorts of fields and this is still, by far, the best job I've ever had. I'm sure you agree that you have to find the humor in things every once in a while.

That's very refreshing! Sorry, bad attempt ar some humor on my part.

 

[TIME FOR CHANGE]

I see a popped slide and 2 beers in someone's future....

LOL
ROFLMAO

 

[FrequentFlierCA]

Clean the plane "without pay" is incredibly deceptive. FAs may not be paid while the door is open, but their hour rate while the door is closed more than makes up for this fact. And if they don't like it they can go make less money at Delta, United, Continental or (God forbid) one of the discounters. Have fun with that.

 

[jimntx]

Incredibly deceptive? Really. Spoken like another (deleted by moderator: namecalling) who wants everyone else to work for minimum wage so he can get cheap tickets. Working and not getting paid for it is working and not getting paid for it, period. The fact that we are not covered by the Taft-Hartley Wage and Hour Act was just another Congressional gift to the airlines.

The trip I just worked (and like the other f/a, I love my job. But then, I don't have to depend upon this job to pay my bills) had me away from base from the time I signed in until 15 minutes after we blocked in on the last leg for 64 hours and 05 minutes. I got paid for 18.48 minutes of that time. During the entire 64+ hours, I was technically on duty 24 hours a day. The company could call me at any time day or night or send an ACARS message to the a/c while aloft to reassign me to something else. My base flight pay is approx. $38/hr. For the true hourly wage for the 64 hours, it works out to $11hr. That "more than makes up?" and, at that wage that "more than makes up" I am guaranteed 70 hours/month. Do the math. I barely clear $2000/month.

You ought to be grateful that f/as are willing to put up with that. I bet you wouldn't. And, as a "the company is always right" man, I'll bet you brag about the origin of the legal precedent for not paying flight attendants while the door is open. In the 1920's when the RLA was passed the railroads got the courts to rule that Pullman porters who were all African-American didn't have to be paid "when the train was in the station" because they weren't doing any real work--just helping passengers on and off and loading and unloading the passengers' steamer trunks, and they got tipped for that. You must be so very proud that the airlines managed to use that same spurious argument.