April/May 2013 Pilot Discussion

[EastUS1]

You mean this one:


Wheels up
Gets Weekends Off


Joined APC: Jul 2007
Posts: 386

All of this bickering is irrelevant. The SLI talks will fail (due to the APA refusing to get embroiled and responsible for US Airways/AW debacle). The SLI will then go to the arbitrators. Regardless, I don't see how the arbitrators can ignore the Nic list . . . . by their fellow arbitrator.

Someone explain how they could.

Not so much. More the following one. My bad for not initially counting the Stalin pic as a post. 😉 "From an outsider, soon to be an insider, the Nic award left me shaking my head in disbelief, when I actually read it.

How can you claim the East is "stealing" jobs when a 2005 West hire is placed above a 1987 East hire?

Is this fair? Really?

Did AWA simply hire gods instead of mere mortals, such that 18 years of flying the line means nothing?

I'm trying hard to understand it all." 🙂

So then: "Did AWA simply hire gods instead of mere mortals, such that 18 years of flying the line means nothing?" We nowadays realize you're all mighty "spartans", "knights" and even "dire wolves"...but "gods" still does seem a bit of a stretch...although likely not in your mind. You can't expect everyone to be equally insane though. 🙂

Note the poster's joining date you quoted here = Joined APC: Jul 2007. Hmm...just possibly a post-nic-announced westie?

 

[Portly Dorman]

Not so much. More the following one. My bad for not counting the Stalin pic as a post. 😉 "From an outsider, soon to be an insider, the Nic award left me shaking my head in disbelief, when I actually read it.

How can you claim the East is "stealing" jobs when a 2005 West hire is placed above a 1987 East hire?

Is this fair? Really?

Did AWA simply hire gods instead of mere mortals, such that 18 years of flying the line means nothing?

I'm trying hard to understand it all." 🙂

So then: "Did AWA simply hire gods instead of mere mortals, such that 18 years of flying the line means nothing?" We all nowadays realize you're all mighty "spartans", "knights" and even "dire wolves"...but "gods" still does seem a bit of a stretch...although likely not in your mind. 🙂

My guess is the PRE-merger career expectation was less than the perceived POST-career expectation that the 1987 hire who was on furlough likes to use.

The AWA pilot brought a job to the table unlike the AAA furloughee who brought a number on a list.

 

[mrbreeze]

Is this how you talk to your daughter too? The one you frequently parade on these boards???

Actually, no......she has class and is smart, unlike you.
breeze

 

[EastUS1]

My guess is the PRE-merger career expectation was less than the perceived POST-career expectation that the 1987 hire who was on furlough likes to use.

Hey!...There's no need to feebly attempt selling your insanely greedy BS here anymore. Just convince the American sorts who write the likes of: "Did AWA simply hire gods instead of mere mortals, such that 18 years of flying the line means nothing?" Good luck. 🙂

 

[Bill Brasky]

I would be VERY suspect of any pro Nic posts from guys who say they are APA pilots. We know these westies like to pretend to be folks they're not.

I can tell you, the Nic would be as bad or worse for the APA guys as it is for East folks at LCC. I just can't see those folks embracing it AT ALL. After talking to my buds at APA, I'm correct about that.

Doesn't matter, the Nic is dead. Has Silver set a date for hearing the west case yet?

 

[Phoenix]

I would be VERY suspect of any pro Nic posts from guys who say they are APA pilots. We know these westies like to pretend to be folks they're not.

I can tell you, the Nic would be as bad or worse for the APA guys as it is for East folks at LCC. I just can't see those folks embracing it AT ALL. After talking to my buds at APA, I'm correct about that.

Doesn't matter, the Nic is dead. Has Silver set a date for hearing the west case yet?

Sure the APA doesn't like the Nic, but they are mortified at the prospect of law suits. You will see...

 

[CallawayGolf]

Hey!...There's no need to feebly attempt selling your insanely greedy BS here anymore. Just convince the American sorts who write the likes of: "Did AWA simply hire gods instead of mere mortals, such that 18 years of flying the line means nothing?" Good luck. 🙂

So it was the west pilots' fault for bringing a job to the merger when the guy with 17 or 18 years either brought no job or the bottom active position to the merger (lowest seniority position at the pre-merged company)? Years of service only has meaning on a stand-alone seniority list. Keeping the same position you could hold after the SLI as you could before is not, greed, a windfall, or any other pejorative you may come up with. Jumping from furloughed to captain with the resulting effect of pushing a captain to a FO or furloughed position would have been a windfall to the furloughed east pilot and would have violated the terms of acceptance laid out in the TA for SLI acceptance by the Company.

 

[end_of_alpa]

I have a question for the "peanut gallery" (AwFOL legal experts): US Airways filed a motion to dismiss document 28 on pg. 7 which states in the footnote "US Airways has appealed the district court’s ripeness decision in Addington II. Neither the West Pilots nor USAPA filed an appeal or cross-appeal. US Airways’ opening brief is currently due on May 10, 2013." http://leonidas.cact..._to_Dismiss.pdf. However, the Appellate order denying USAPA's motion to expedite states that "the opening brief remains due April 10, 2013". http://leonidas.cact...to_Expedite.pdf. So, which is it and where is the extention?

 

[end_of_alpa]

So it was the west pilots' fault for bringing a job to the merger when the guy with 17 or 18 years either brought no job or the bottom active position to the merger (lowest seniority position at the pre-merged company)? Years of service only has meaning on a stand-alone seniority list. Keeping the same position you could hold after the SLI as you could before is not, greed, a windfall, or any other pejorative you may come up with. Jumping from furloughed to captain with the resulting effect of pushing a captain to a FO or furloughed position would have been a windfall to the furloughed east pilot and would have violated the terms of acceptance laid out in the TA for SLI acceptance by the Company.

So years of service has no meaning during a strike/lockout which is the real meaning of what a scab does, which is take a job from someone who has more years of service with a company than they have. That's why the LEGAL DEFINITION of seniority is "length of service". That's also why the railroad unions got started along with industrial unions and finally the Airlines. If you have no interest in valuing years of service you have no time value for yourself and hence diminish your own value in the long term. Read the history books, including ALPA Flying the Line, Vol. I & II, just to "refresh" your memory. Remember, history reminds us that if you don't want to fly the aircraft, we'll (the company with FAA minimums) get someone who can and DAMN the safety issues. That about sums it up, doesn't it Calloway???

 

[CallawayGolf]

So years of service has no meaning during a strike/lockout which is the real meaning of what a scab does, which is take a job from someone who has more years of service with a company than they have. That's why the LEGAL DEFINITION of seniority is "length of service". That's also why the railroad unions got started along with industrial unions and finally the Airlines. If you have no interest in valuing years of service you have no time value for yourself and hence diminish your own value in the long term. Read the history books, including ALPA Flying the Line, Vol. I & II, just to "refresh" your memory. Remember, history reminds us that if you don't want to fly the aircraft, we'll (the company with FAA minimums) get someone who can and DAMN the safety issues. That about sums it up, doesn't it Calloway???

So it was the west pilots' fault for bringing jobs to the merger but having less than 18 years of service. Wonder why the arbitration panel didn't see it as vividly as you paint the picture in absolute terms.

BTW was AAA or HP on a lockout/strike? It's been so long I forget which one it was now.

Thanks.

 

[end_of_alpa]

So it was the west pilots' fault for bringing a job to the merger when the guy with 17 or 18 years either brought no job or the bottom active position to the merger (lowest seniority position at the pre-merged company)? Years of service only has meaning on a stand-alone seniority list. Keeping the same position you could hold after the SLI as you could before is not, greed, a windfall, or any other pejorative you may come up with. Jumping from furloughed to captain with the resulting effect of pushing a captain to a FO or furloughed position would have been a windfall to the furloughed east pilot and would have violated the terms of acceptance laid out in the TA for SLI acceptance by the Company.

And we brought THE EAST COAST, wide-bodies and ATTRITION that inures ONLY WITH THE EAST, all of which Parker & Kirby BOTH explain that without the merger, there is nothing for you but BK which was weeks away for AWA and THEN having to try to raise whatever capital they could on the open market to keep the doors open at stand alone AWA. Parker and Kirby were bucking to keep their jobs too, pal. Those are the facts, and they will be heard in court.

 

[traderjake]

That's why the LEGAL DEFINITION of seniority is "length of service".

Not according to the last four pilot seniority arbitrations.

We'll see what the next arbitration panel has to say.

 

[end_of_alpa]

So it was the west pilots' fault for bringing jobs to the merger but having less than 18 years of service. Wonder why the arbitration panel didn't see it as vividly as you paint the picture in absolute terms.

BTW was AAA or HP on a lockout/strike? It's been so long I forget which one it was now.

Thanks.

Well you certainly haven't been around long enough to know what a strike is, that's for sure.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Not according to the last four pilot seniority arbitrations.

And that means nothing, 10 years doesn't make a "trend" Dan. You investor types should know that. We've had an aviation transportation system for almost 100 years. In the grand scheme of things no one can predict the future.

 

[traderjake]

And that means nothing, 10 years doesn't make a "trend" Dan. You investor types should know that. We've had an aviation transportation system for almost 100 years. In the grand scheme of things no one can predict the future.

Four in a four is a trend, five if you want to include Southwest - Airtran.

If statistics mean anything you're probable going to get your clock cleaned again, Jamie.