Are NW mechanics happy with AMFA

[KCFlyer]

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On 6/20/2003 12:00:41 AM tug_slug wrote:


From what I understand NW is asking for $950 million from its labor groups, knowing that just about every other airline is hurting and have received concessions from their employees how do you feel AMFA will handle the situation?

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My guess is that NWA will be used as the "toughness proving grounds" for the AMFA. They may be able to lure Charlie Bryan out of retirement to head up the negotiations. This''ll be interesting, particularly with all the negative posts about other unions and concessions. I think they''ll stand so firm that either the mechanic ranks will be thinned horribly at NWA (but the pay will stay), or the airline will be forced into bankruptcy. Bottom line, whatever comes up at NWA, I believe that the AMFA is going to be putting their reputation ahead of their members well being.

 

[KCFlyer]

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On 6/20/2003 7:53:35 AM TDR1502C wrote:

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Ya think? Maybe the sun will rise in the east tomorrow also. Considering the folks at NWA have over 30 years of nasty labor relations and the mechanic and related group voted down concessions in 1993 (the IAM International stepped in to make sure the vote went the correct way on the second vote), it looks like a safe bet on your part. Just as an aside, it will probably warm your heart to hear that the EAL folks used to consider the NWA people to be extremely militant.


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So are you saying that it''s a good thing to put the reputation of the union ahead of the well being of their members?

 

[TDR1502C]

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On 6/20/2003 6:41:16 AM KCFlyer wrote:
My guess is that NWA will be used as the "toughness proving grounds" for the AMFA.  They may be able to lure Charlie Bryan out of retirement to head up the negotiations.  This''ll be interesting, particularly with all the negative posts about other unions and concessions.  I think they''ll stand so firm that either the mechanic ranks will be thinned horribly at NWA (but the pay will stay), or the airline will be forced into bankruptcy.  Bottom line, whatever comes up at NWA, I believe that the AMFA is going to be putting their reputation ahead of their members well being.

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Ya think? Maybe the sun will rise in the east tomorrow also. Considering the folks at NWA have over 30 years of nasty labor relations and the mechanic and related group voted down concessions in 1993 (the IAM International stepped in to make sure the vote went the correct way on the second vote), it looks like a safe bet on your part. Just as an aside, it will probably warm your heart to hear that the EAL folks used to consider the NWA people to be extremely militant.

 

[TDR1502C]

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On 6/20/2003 8:07:23 AM KCFlyer wrote:

So are you saying that it''s a good thing to put the reputation of the union ahead of the well being of their members?

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You must be thinking of other unions. It happens to a lot of folks who feel the membership shouldn''t be allowed to run their own union. The membership voted no for concessions under the IAM in 1993, why wouldn''t they vote no for concessions with AMFA. In 1993 they also got to experience the IAM standard of concessions AND associated lay-offs. Why would they want to go that route again? Concessions OR lay-offs, not both.

 

[KCFlyer]

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On 6/20/2003 9:12:36 AM TDR1502C wrote:
Teeny-weeny never took concessions? Are you sure about that? Even Eastern took three rounds of concessions before saying no to round four. I guess from the spectator stands the game looks different than what us players see.


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Never said that they didn''t take concessions. What I did say was that when the IAM stood firm against the "best and final offer" in the very last negotiations before becoming a part of AA, the demise of the company wasn''t too far behind.

 

[TDR1502C]

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On 6/20/2003 8:46:57 AM KCFlyer wrote:


I remember an old airline that used to hub in Saint Louis but is now a part of American where the lowly IAM took a stand after a ''best and final offer'' was presented.  And the company miraculously came up with a better offer.  A year later, their name had an LLC behind it, then they dropped the name altogether.  Now it looks like they are being "trimmed" over at their new employer (although many over their are telling them how great the AMFA will be for them).  DAmned if they win...damned if they lose.  The had no concessions, but they had no company either.   So if the company opens their books to the AMFA and says it this or bankruptcy court, you''re all for following the flock into Chapter 11?   But by golly, the AMFA can point to managment and claim it''s all their fault - the union stood up for their dues paying members, and this tough stance can be used as an example of the tough negotiating the AMFA will do on behalf of the other airlines mechanics. 

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Teeny-weeny never took concessions? Are you sure about that? Even Eastern took three rounds of concessions before saying no to round four. I guess from the spectator stands the game looks different than what us players see.

 

[KCFlyer]

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On 6/20/2003 8:31:34 AM TDR1502C wrote:


You must be thinking of other unions. It happens to a lot of folks who feel the membership shouldn''t be allowed to run their own union. The membership voted no for concessions under the IAM in 1993, why wouldn''t they vote no for concessions with AMFA. In 1993 they also got to experience the IAM standard of concessions AND associated lay-offs. Why would they want to go that route again? Concessions OR lay-offs, not both.


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I remember an old airline that used to hub in Saint Louis but is now a part of American where the lowly IAM took a stand after a ''best and final offer'' was presented. And the company miraculously came up with a better offer. A year later, their name had an LLC behind it, then they dropped the name altogether. Now it looks like they are being "trimmed" over at their new employer (although many over their are telling them how great the AMFA will be for them). DAmned if they win...damned if they lose. The had no concessions, but they had no company either. So if the company opens their books to the AMFA and says it this or bankruptcy court, you''re all for following the flock into Chapter 11? But by golly, the AMFA can point to managment and claim it''s all their fault - the union stood up for their dues paying members, and this tough stance can be used as an example of the tough negotiating the AMFA will do on behalf of the other airlines mechanics.

 

[TDR1502C]

The STL wildcat strike didn''t clue you in?

 

[KCFlyer]

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On 6/20/2003 10:02:58 AM TDR1502C wrote:

The STL wildcat strike didn''t clue you in?

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Yeah, I guess they really showed management, didn''t they?

 

[NWA/AMT]

tug_slug,

When an airline goes into bankruptcy, as you know, both the airline and the union are required by bankruptcy law to negotiate in good faith to reach a deal on concessions. However, in both the U and UAL cases the ''negotiation'' on the part of the company has apparently consisted of presenting a list of demands and threatening to have the bankruptcy judge abrogate the agreements if those demands are not met. In the case of U, the carrier and the RSA openly conspired to increase their profits from the employees by demanding that the concessions be increased after the employees apparently gave in too easily the first time.

In 1993, NWA was seeking to get out from under the debt that Al Checci and Gary Wilson had placed on the airline with their LBO in the 1980s. To do this they used the state of Minnesota and the employees of NWA. Their demands for concessions even included theatrics like having their lawyers standing on the courthouse steps, allegedly with the bankruptcy papers in their briefcases. Once they had the concessions in hand, the airline made a miraculous turnaround - miraculous because the concessions hadn''t even kicked in yet. The NWA mechanics lived under those concessions until May, 2001, and since then NWA has attempted every way they could to violate our contract, depending on the grievance process to buy them time.

NWA management has no credibility with us. The easiest way to tell if they''re lying is to see if their mouths are moving. NWA''s costs per seat mile as they are now are competitive with the concessionary deals negotiated at the other airlines. What NWA is seeking is not parity, it is advantage. They have again loaded the airline with debt to prop up their cash position and justify their bonuses, now they again expect the employees to buy them out of the mess they''ve created. To continue the decades long process of giving concessions only allows airline management to avoid dealing with the real issues; the fact that the US economy is cyclical in nature. Until they address that fact and their pricing issues, more concessions are just throwing good money after bad. Eventually the job you''re allegedly ''saving'' isn''t worth saving.

Unless and until NWA goes into bankruptcy court, I would not expect to see AMFA willing to discuss concessions. Even then, I expect they would do as they have done before: let the members decide. Considering that NWA''s idea of negotiating is to let you decide what font to use when the contracts they want are printed, I expect it''s going to be a difficult road.

Regardless of the outcome of NWA''s demands for concessions, and regardless of whether AMFA remains the union of choice for the NWA mechanics, the IAM will never represent the mechanics at NWA again. The difference I mentioned previously in the way the two unions deal with grievances is just the beginning of the positive changes we have had since changing unions at NWA. The IAM had fifty years representing the mechanics at NWA, and it was with those fifty years in mind that we voted to replace them. One would expect the folks at Placid Harbor would eventually realize this and step aside. They said that the contract that they presented to us, and we rejected, in July, 1998 was the best they could do; we took them at their word and replaced them.

 

[RUM@AA]

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On 6/18/2003 321 PM tug_slug wrote:

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Perhaps you could post an updated AMFA press release that indicates that they saved those jobs.  Otherwise, saying "we''re disappointed" isn''t buying the membership a whole lot. 
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I apologize for quoting an article that''s so out dated. Perhaps the links below will be more to your liking.
http://biz.yahoo.com/djus/030618/1119001051_2.html 
http://biz.yahoo.com/rc/030618/airlines_northwest_1.html
Truth is the people your about to lose is just the tip of the iceberg, wait till the company TELLS AMFA its time to start talking concessions, that''s when were going to see what AMFA is made of.
Let the party begin 

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Some of us at AA are watching and I personally like what I hear (see) AMFA saying to and about NWA management. This is a stark contrast to what the unbelievably worthless TWU says and does.

June 2003 Airline Rep Report

On June 4th representatives from the Association met with representatives of the Seneca Group to discuss their preliminary analysis of the Company’s economic condition and to discuss whether or not there is a need for the proposed concessionary package that has been given to the Association. The Seneca Group informed those in attendance that their findings clearly show that the labor groups on the property are being asked to bear a disproportionate share of the cost-restructuring burden when compared to the proposed sacrifices of the other stakeholders in the Company. They went on to state that of all the labor groups on the property, the Association members are being asked to bear a disproportionate share of the total labor cost-restructuring burden with few exceptions. It is quite evident to those of us who have been around for the last few rounds of contract negotiations, that the Company’s proposal seeks not only to eliminate all of the gains garnered in the new agreement, but also to implement work rule changes, which were sought after and never gained throughout several previous rounds of negotiations. So what does this mean to the membership, and what does the membership need to know or do?

The membership needs to bear in mind two very salient points. The first is that now more than ever it is going to be incumbent upon us to be as productive as ever, so that we will have the ability to be as competitive as we can be with regards to others in the industry who would love to coax our work their way. When it comes to maintaining their fleet the Company doesn’t care who does their maintenance, so long as they get an airworthy aircraft as cheaply as possible. The good news is that recently our members demonstrated their supreme professionalism by producing a check aircraft in record time (several thousand hours under the forecasted manpower requirements). It is going to be this kind of commitment and innovation that will insure our viability going forward for the long term. In the mean time, the second thing that our members need to do is to prepare for the unforeseen events yet to come. While we do not wish to cause our members any unnecessary worry, the road ahead is going to be a bumpy one and if they haven’t already done so they need to get their houses in order. Beyond this the rest is up to the Association and the teams of professionals we have hired to see us through the storm to the fair skies on the other side.

In the latest edition of Passages, Richard Anderson provided some additional comments about the special edition “The New Marketplace†which was contained in the May edition of Passages. Mr. Anderson was seeking to address some of the comments he had heard or read from various employees throughout the Company concerning the dichotomy between the Northwest Airlines and Southwest Airlines wage scales, as well as those of the other low-cost carriers. In his comparative analysis of the respective technician groups he points out that while the Southwest technicians may enjoy a higher wage scale, and a matching 401K retirement plan, their company outsources nearly all of its heavy maintenance and a significant share of its line maintenance, that their technicians perform pushbacks

only at the Love field station in Dallas, and at Southwest the technicians do not have a defined pension benefit plan like the one enjoyed by Northwest employees. But what is perhaps more interesting than what Mr. Anderson had to say is what Mr. Anderson wasn’t saying. For example, while the technicians at Southwest do not have a defined pension benefit plan and receive only matching funds toward their 401K plan up to a maximum of 7%, they are given the opportunity to acquire stock in the company in addition to their matching funds. This is stock in a company that has been one of the darlings of both Wall Street and the industry for nearly thirty years. But beyond that oversight Mr. Anderson failed to include another very important analysis, an analysis of the managerial groups of the respective airlines. For example, during the last 10 years the management team at Southwest Airlines has been able to produce and sustain a profitability record that is second to none in the industry with successive consecutive years of profitability during this same period. While at Northwest Airlines the various management teams that were/are in place have only been able to produce a positive net income for 5 out of the last 10 years. To be clear Mr. Anderson wasn’t in charge of the franchise for the entire previous ten-year period and it would be punitive to hold him accountable for that lackluster performance. The fact is the two-year period that he has been in charge has been perhaps one of the roughest periods in the industry’s history. But if not him then who?

In any corporation it is ultimately the Board of Directors that is charged with the oversight of the corporation and it is the Board of Directors who are tasked with insuring the vitality of the franchise. What is becoming more and more clear as we do our own comparative analysis is that it has been a nonchalant Board of Directors and the various under performing management teams that have gotten this company into the pickle it is currently in (with the help of a downturn in the economy) not the various employee groups. So it is going to be this same group of individuals that is going to steer us back to the road of prosperity by demonstrating to the various employee groups the level of sacrifice they are willing to sustain in order to accomplish this unenviable task.

On a lighter but no less solemn note, we regret to inform the members of Local 33 that they recently lost what is no doubt one the strongest, advocates to ever represent a group of employees on the Northwest property. We are of course referring to George Hellmer. If you haven’t already heard, George is no longer able to hold Minneapolis as his point with his technician seniority and he is going to be exercising his seniority to another point in the very near future. There has truly been no one as dedicated to serving the membership of this Local as George Hellmer. His unwavering commitment, inexhaustible fortitude, unmitigated sacrifice, chronic hard work, and uncanny ability to think “outside of the box†will truly be missed. If you have the opportunity to thank George for all of his hard work, please take the time to thank him for all that he has done for the members of Local 33. As far as we’re concerned there are few if any that can hold a candle to Mr. George Hellmer. George on behalf of all of the members of Local 33 thank you so very, very, much for all that you have done for all of us, you touched so many lives during your time here that it is incalculable and you left an indelible mark on each and every one of us. May God bless and watch over you and yours.

Bill Reis - Airline Rep Rich Nygaard - Assistant Airline Rep.



These guys are on the ball. They''re not afraid to blame management when management is to blame. They''re not lackys like TWU and IAM.
On another note: It sounds like what happened at NWA in 1993 is exactly what happened at AA just 6 weeks ago. Our Industrial unions lap dogs were duped again... and again... and again.

 

[RV4]

Maybe we could get a current card count?

HOW MANY TWU CARDS HAVE BEEN SIGNED AT NWA?

Surely all the TWU Stooges that advocate concessions, secret negotiations, and ratifications without credible voting has a fully functional organizing committee at Northwest and can provide us a current card count by station that proves the TWU is better and AMFA has failed?

HOW MANY IAM CARDS HAVE BEEN SIGNED AT NWA?

If the Industrial Union Stooges are correct that AMFA members are upset with their union leadership, then what is the current IAM card count at Northwest?

HOW MANY PETITIONS TO REMOVE OFFICERS HAVE BEEN SIGNED AT NWA?

The AMFA Constitution Provides for Removal of Local and International Officers.
If the Industrial Union Stooges could even generate 25% support for their Concessions in Exchange for Jobs programs, then surely they have the petitions to prove the members are upset with the actions of their leaders?

WHAT? NO PROOF? SO A FEW COMPLAINERS WITH NO BACKING? OK

 

[KCFlyer]

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On 6/21/2003 12:48:11 AM RUM@AA wrote:

These guys are on the ball. They''re not afraid to blame management when management is to blame. They''re not lackys like TWU and IAM.



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PUhhhleeeze - I haven''t read anything from any unon that said "We are to blame for the problems in the industry". They are all very quick to blame mangement. Didn''t the IAM blame management for the problems at Eastern? The problem is this - neither side is willing to accept the fact that BOTH sides share some of the blame for the state of the industry. It''s a warm fuzzy feel good thing to say managment got us into this mess, they''ll have to get us out. How do you or the AMFA propose that they do that? Oh yeah....shrink to profitability.. Once the airlines are past these difficult times and managment has learned their lesson from all their mistakes (and when the AMFA represents every airlines mechanics), it will be interesting to see what AMFA tells their membership when managment proactively "shrinks to remain profitable" while the times are still good. After all, Southwest''s motto is to live in the good times as if they were bad. What will your union say when a company is profitable, but who sees a decline from the previous years profits, and proactively cuts jobs to insure continued profitablity. Methinks that when they see a profit instead of a loss, membership will demand that their union fight for job preservation and security. Promises are so easy to make when you''re not the one involved.

 

[KCFlyer]

RV4 - Congratulations on your new job. You said you had something in the works, and I think it's great that you hired on with the AMFA. I always said you should believe in the company you work for. Do you have to wear a suit at work, or are you lucky enough to have "business casual" most of the time?

 

[TDR1502C]

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On 6/21/2003 618 AM KCFlyer wrote:


PUhhhleeeze - I haven''t read anything from any unon that said "We are to blame for the problems in the industry".  They are all very quick to blame mangement.  Didn''t the IAM blame management for the problems at Eastern?   The problem is this - neither side is willing to accept the fact that BOTH sides share some of the blame for the state of the industry.    It''s a warm fuzzy feel good thing to say managment got us into this mess, they''ll have to get us out.  How do you or the AMFA propose that they do that?   Oh yeah....shrink to profitability..  Once the airlines are past these difficult times and managment has learned their lesson from all their mistakes (and when the AMFA represents every airlines mechanics), it will be interesting to see what AMFA tells their membership when managment proactively "shrinks to remain profitable" while the times are still good.  After all, Southwest''s motto is to live in the good times as if they were bad.  What will your union say when a company is profitable, but who sees a decline from the previous years profits, and proactively cuts jobs to insure continued profitablity.  Methinks that when they see a profit instead of a loss, membership will demand that their union fight for job preservation and security.  Promises are so easy to make when you''re not the one involved. 

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Sounds like you miss regulation and all the lay-offs that frequently occured as airlines tried to "right-size" to their routes. Some lay-offs were even seasonal, some were annual. Keep in mind we just passed through about fifteen years of unusually secure times for airline employees. I think the proof that AMFA is responsible for any airline woes will be to see if AMFA can run Southwest into the ground. If that happens I''ll admit the union shares some of the blame.

NWA/AMT, good posts.