As Paul Harvey use to say........
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Garfield1966
Veteran
Finally someone has the courage to speak about that which no one wants to talk about.
I mentioned this in a different thread already. At what point do we say that replacing a hip on someone who will never walk much less live much longer is not a prudent use of limited resources? We are no longer a rich country. We produce very little (try and find a 'made in the USA sign') we consume far more than we are entitled to IMO. An now we have to face facts. Either we find away to dramatically reduce the cost of health care or we start limiting procedures to those who need them. Not a easy solution to be sure but staying with the same plan we have now is not an option. Too many people are dying or being deprived of care who desperately need it.
People in the US never want to hear or talk about the start realities of life. If Obama really did say that, he will probably pay the consequences for it. The factthat it needed to be said and it needs to be talked about not with standing.
I mentioned this in a different thread already. At what point do we say that replacing a hip on someone who will never walk much less live much longer is not a prudent use of limited resources? We are no longer a rich country. We produce very little (try and find a 'made in the USA sign') we consume far more than we are entitled to IMO. An now we have to face facts. Either we find away to dramatically reduce the cost of health care or we start limiting procedures to those who need them. Not a easy solution to be sure but staying with the same plan we have now is not an option. Too many people are dying or being deprived of care who desperately need it.
People in the US never want to hear or talk about the start realities of life. If Obama really did say that, he will probably pay the consequences for it. The factthat it needed to be said and it needs to be talked about not with standing.
southwind
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I'm sure this plan would save money too ! How about NO healthcare provided until your 50 years old, if you make it that far, then use all resources only on patients over 50!
We'll call it "Survival of the Fittest" or "Weeding out the Weak" Plans
Seatacus
Veteran
How would you feel if you were put in the group that only got limited procedures?
Bob, please name the Federal Government institutions that you want to rid yourself of.
Supreme Court?
Department of Defense?
NTSB?
National Park Service?
The A&P would be a thing of the past (as if it already isn't).FAA............
So would licensed pilots, controlled airspace, navaids, no regulations on aircraft manufacturing, parts, etc...
Garfield1966
Veteran
First off, it happens everyday. Decisions are made every day as to who get to live and who gets to die, or keep waiting. How do you think organ recipients are determined? It's not the lottery. The board who controls the organs has criteria, depending on where you fall will determine how far up (or down) the list you are. A young health child will be far higher on the list (all other things being equal) than a middle aged health adult. That is just the way it works because there are limited resources (organs). If you are the one who is farther down the list and you die, it sucks big time, if you are higher up the list because you fit the criteria and you get a organ and live it's great.
Again, these decisions are made everyday all across this country and all across the world. Look at triage procedures. Those who are most critical AND most likely to survive are first. Someone who has a severed artery and is bleeding out with other issues probably will go behind someone else who has a wond that is more likely to be repairable.
And then there are the insurance companies who deny care because they do not think the procedure is needed, applicable or is experimental. OH well, sucks to be you.
So please do not pretend that these decisions are new to the health care arena.
As a side note. Just took my dog to the vet for a ultrasound. The tech was a mobile unit. Had a specialized lap top and a sensor head thing. Cost me all of $365. So, why exactly does the same procedure cost over $3000 at a doctors office using the exact same equipment? I know this becasue the tech doing my dog used to do it to people before he got fed up with the BS and switched to animals.
You want to reduce the cost of health care. The over inflated, patient gouging, health care industry enriching prices might me a good place to start.
PS: I don't buy into all this capitalist because that's what it is, HORSESHITE plain and simple. Capitalist insurance companies, hospitals and care givers determining who lives and dies based on the $$$$.
Drop the knee jerk reactionary talk will you. Neither extreme is good. There is a middle ground.
Again, these decisions are made everyday all across this country and all across the world. Look at triage procedures. Those who are most critical AND most likely to survive are first. Someone who has a severed artery and is bleeding out with other issues probably will go behind someone else who has a wond that is more likely to be repairable.
And then there are the insurance companies who deny care because they do not think the procedure is needed, applicable or is experimental. OH well, sucks to be you.
So please do not pretend that these decisions are new to the health care arena.
As a side note. Just took my dog to the vet for a ultrasound. The tech was a mobile unit. Had a specialized lap top and a sensor head thing. Cost me all of $365. So, why exactly does the same procedure cost over $3000 at a doctors office using the exact same equipment? I know this becasue the tech doing my dog used to do it to people before he got fed up with the BS and switched to animals.
You want to reduce the cost of health care. The over inflated, patient gouging, health care industry enriching prices might me a good place to start.
PS: I don't buy into all this capitalist because that's what it is, HORSESHITE plain and simple. Capitalist insurance companies, hospitals and care givers determining who lives and dies based on the $$$$.
Drop the knee jerk reactionary talk will you. Neither extreme is good. There is a middle ground.
Garfield1966
Veteran
Dell,
you let me know how that works out for you. First you have to find a lawyer willing to take the case, then you have to hope that the violation of the insurance Co. is so blatant that they do not even contest it. Barring that, how much money are you willing to spend to sue them? Think you'll see a dime? Please. Everyone knows the Ins Co. are crooks, like they can be embarrassed. They could care less.
Capitalism does not work in all situations. Health care is one. If you don't want the government plan then you better figure out away to control the costs. A Ultrasound should not cost over $3k when I can get one for my dog for $365. The insurance companies, hospitals and doctors have been screwing us over for decades and it has to stop. Have you ever looked at the receipt for a hospital stay? $10 for a freaking aspirin, $100 for a catheter and that does not even include putting the damn thing in. It's a freaking piece of plastic with a needle. They manufacture millions of them. CT scan can run over $4k. ICU ... over $15k a night. I brother in law had double by pass with complications. Bill was over $1 million dollars. Capitalism is working great.
The saddest part about this whole fiasco is that rather than come up with productive ways to fix the problems with health care, the right is doing the same crap they did back in the 90's. Scaring the people with BS lies about death panels and the like. Throwing out the socialism card like it actually has relevance. Health care reform was a huge issue in the elections. One could argue that there was a mandate to change it. Now it will get sidelined yet again and we will go on with the same broken system and allow the insurance companies, doctors, lawyers and hospitals to make obscene amounts of money off of our suffering. I guess if you can beat them at the elections, just throw money at the lobbyist and they will do your dirty work for you.
you let me know how that works out for you. First you have to find a lawyer willing to take the case, then you have to hope that the violation of the insurance Co. is so blatant that they do not even contest it. Barring that, how much money are you willing to spend to sue them? Think you'll see a dime? Please. Everyone knows the Ins Co. are crooks, like they can be embarrassed. They could care less.
Capitalism does not work in all situations. Health care is one. If you don't want the government plan then you better figure out away to control the costs. A Ultrasound should not cost over $3k when I can get one for my dog for $365. The insurance companies, hospitals and doctors have been screwing us over for decades and it has to stop. Have you ever looked at the receipt for a hospital stay? $10 for a freaking aspirin, $100 for a catheter and that does not even include putting the damn thing in. It's a freaking piece of plastic with a needle. They manufacture millions of them. CT scan can run over $4k. ICU ... over $15k a night. I brother in law had double by pass with complications. Bill was over $1 million dollars. Capitalism is working great.
The saddest part about this whole fiasco is that rather than come up with productive ways to fix the problems with health care, the right is doing the same crap they did back in the 90's. Scaring the people with BS lies about death panels and the like. Throwing out the socialism card like it actually has relevance. Health care reform was a huge issue in the elections. One could argue that there was a mandate to change it. Now it will get sidelined yet again and we will go on with the same broken system and allow the insurance companies, doctors, lawyers and hospitals to make obscene amounts of money off of our suffering. I guess if you can beat them at the elections, just throw money at the lobbyist and they will do your dirty work for you.
southwind
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Theres a BIG difference between an organ transplant and a hip replacement !
I believe there is probably an over abundance of artificial hips...............not sure you can make the same claim about organs though !
Someones bouncing all over the map again !
I believe there is probably an over abundance of artificial hips...............not sure you can make the same claim about organs though !
Someones bouncing all over the map again !
What are you referring to? I'm at a loss here.....
You mean like the DNC ads scaring the older people taking Gingrich out of context : "We don't get rid of it in round one because we don't think that's politically smart, we don't think that's the right way to go through a transition, but we believe it's going to wither on the vine."
Looks now maybe Newt knew what he was talking about as Medicare is in the hole...
Isn't that why Obama doesn't have any tort reform in his plans?
Most Dems are lawyers and behold to the contributions of the legal lobby.....
Want serious HC reform it has to include serious tort reform.
Here is good example of why the FAA is a good thing:
Special AD issued on Propeller.
Things like this are caught regularly by FAA inspectors. If it were not for their existence, more would get away with it. They are currently understaffed due to hiring shortfalls during the last administration, but they will soon be back on track.
The FAA is not perfect, but they do a lot of good.
I seem to recall a discussion or a magazine article that claimed high infant death at birth or shortly after birth were possibly caused by doctors or parents when it was discovered the infant was blind, death, had down syndrome or some other ailment that would prevent the infant from being an asset on the farm or to the community and not a drain. Doctors used to -were expected to by golly make these harsh decesions, but are now punished for doing so in todays modern socioity. Parents are punished for the same, and not too many generations ago, if a child just up and died before about age 5 or so, and if the authorities knew the child was how we would now define as "special" a blind eye was turned and the death recorded either from illness or an accident. I see a comparision to the NAZI officializing said practice. In todays health care expence problem why should a financially strapped family be forced to pay for a hip replacement for an elderly patient who was terminal to begin with?
Holistic Medicine. There are more and more health care facilities that - yes, are cheaper than conventional facilities, but are there not to keep terminally ill and extremly old patients alive at the expence of their children and of socioity, but to allow then to die in diginity.
As far as the expence to health care, I am a veteran with service connected priority. I had a groth on my back I had had since I was a child. Recently it had stopped secreting puss and had hardened. It became a little painful. I went to a VA hospital. The Dr. looked at it, decided it was not dangerous, but called me in A FEW DAYS LATER for surgery that took an hour to remove it. The VA is known for keeping health care at a low cost. They are damned for that, but now are seen as kind of a model for it.
I really do not think the total expence of my surgery was much more than a couple of grand. But if the insurance companies ran the VA, I just bet it would have been higher, much higher. Nobody was lining up for their "cut".
The Doctors are paid a salery. Not a piece of the expence of the operation. I only had to pay for my drugs, and they were very cheap. I met a heart patient in the pharmacy. He had a whole cocktail of pills and salves and liquids to take. His expence was well under $100.00, for at least a months supply. Beat that!
Holistic Medicine. There are more and more health care facilities that - yes, are cheaper than conventional facilities, but are there not to keep terminally ill and extremly old patients alive at the expence of their children and of socioity, but to allow then to die in diginity.
As far as the expence to health care, I am a veteran with service connected priority. I had a groth on my back I had had since I was a child. Recently it had stopped secreting puss and had hardened. It became a little painful. I went to a VA hospital. The Dr. looked at it, decided it was not dangerous, but called me in A FEW DAYS LATER for surgery that took an hour to remove it. The VA is known for keeping health care at a low cost. They are damned for that, but now are seen as kind of a model for it.
I really do not think the total expence of my surgery was much more than a couple of grand. But if the insurance companies ran the VA, I just bet it would have been higher, much higher. Nobody was lining up for their "cut".
The Doctors are paid a salery. Not a piece of the expence of the operation. I only had to pay for my drugs, and they were very cheap. I met a heart patient in the pharmacy. He had a whole cocktail of pills and salves and liquids to take. His expence was well under $100.00, for at least a months supply. Beat that!
