August 2013 Pilot Discussion

[cleardirect]

Why don't ask resident loser Fergouson about that. 2003 doh and 35 numbers from hitting the street where he should be if not for hubbing into and out of CLT every day - but I digress.

No East pilot sat at the bottom of the list for 10 years +. THAT, is strictly an America West situation.

No. You easties sat on furlough for 5 years

 

[Pi brat]

Exactly. You can't accurately predict the future and the past is mostly irrelevant to current events which is why Nicolau discounted most of the arguments advanced by both the east and west pilot groups that hung on events of the past or predictions of the future. He took two separate lists as the existed when the dispute began and combined them in a very comprehensible fashion based on equipment and the relative populations sizes of each group. That produced a protected 517 east positions and a 2:1 sloting of the NB positions leaving those who were not working for the ML at the time behind anyone who was for was employed by the either of the separate entities. Makes perfect sense to me.

Of course it make perfect sense, it serves you well.

You can run each groups movement to retirement and see what % they hit, based on a static list(what you have at the time of the merger). One of your former reps would hit about 13% at retirement if you ran the west list out, about 3% under the Nic. The difference comes out of east hides.

 

[Pi brat]

No. You easties sat on furlough for 5 years

Most of us have never been furloughed. You know that, right?

 

[cactusboy53]

Oh, I made it through the entire bowl of tripe, I assure you. Perhaps, by your assuming otherwise; you missed the portion wherein that literally unbelievable "ideology" was addressed? = " that entire barnyard full of complete BS"...? 🙂

Asked, and answered. Begin spinning in 3-2-1....

 

[EastUS1]

Unlike you eastie people don't just do things to punish people.

I must once again wonder what planet you're actually from, and whether or not you've ever studied ANY of earth's happy history? 😉

 

[Pi brat]

That produced a protected 517 east positions and a 2:1 sloting of the NB positions leaving those who were not working for the ML at the time behind anyone who was for was employed by the either of the separate entities. Makes perfect sense to me.

I'll have to look again, but I don't think that is right. After you put the top 517 east, on top, then staple the previously furloughed, I seem to remember that it was then about a 1:25 to 1 slot. I ended up at the same relative position on the Nic. I'm no math major, but with 517 of my friends on top shouldn't that have given me a bump to a better relative position?

 

[cleardirect]

So you would have taken whatever Scott and Doug gave you, even if it was a small raise and gutted your upward progress. Okay. I don't think most would have. Thanks for answering.

I did not say we would have taken whatever Parker gave us. We would have negotiated a better contract. But seniority would not have been a bargaining chip like usapa has tried to do. What was it Seham said! Usapa a would give the company a cost neutral contract for DOH.

But you ignored by first point. Why would an arbitrator staple the west? That w old be unfair and a windfall for the east right? Placing a furloughed pilot senior to a captain would be a windfall right. DOH is a windfall for the east. Right.

 

[EastUS1]

Asked, and answered.

Indeed, and at such a length as to entirely diminish any credibility within it. Your supposed, personal "ideology", as expressed, was nothing more than standard repetition of the anti-east manifesto/mantra. I'll go with Phoenix on this one, in that "Methinks the lady doth protest too much". 😉 No matter really.

 

[Pi brat]

But you ignored by first point. Why would an arbitrator staple the west? That w old be unfair and a windfall for the east right? Placing a furloughed pilot senior to a captain would be a windfall right. DOH is a windfall for the east. Right.

I ignored it because it was irrelevant. None of us thought he would staple a 17 year LOS pilot.

You left off the question mark, but I assume that last line was a question. I think that DOH, as presented by USAPA way back, would be a windfall for east pilots. I suggested that they ask for west input. They did, although I doubt it had anything to do with my input, and the west declined.

USAPA's proposal had C&Rs to try and avoid windfalls. I don't think they went far enough, but they went much farther than George Nicolau's did.

How do you know you would have negotiated a better contract? How would you have done that during the worst recession since the depression? Have you looked at the F/A's contract? I have.

 

[CallawayGolf]

I'll have to look again, but I don't think that is right. After you put the top 517 east, on top, then staple the previously furloughed, I seem to remember that it was then about a 1:25 to 1 slot. I ended up at the same relative position on the Nic. I'm no math major, but with 517 of my friends on top shouldn't that have given me a bump to a better relative position?

That would be interesting to know if true. I've heard all along that it was 2:1 but if it's not I'll stop using that as the metric. I assume if it is less than 2:1 then that was done to make it even more closely aligned with the slotting and percentile retention methodology which is good. Almost everybody stays at the same percent above and below the total population and then those with less seniority move up as those with more seniority than they vacate a position.

 

[Pi brat]

That would be interesting to know if true. I've heard all along that it was 2:1 but if it's not I'll stop using that as the metric. I assume if it is less than 2:1 then that was done to make it even more closely aligned with the slotting and percentile retention methodology which is good. Almost everybody stays at the same percent above and below the total population and then those with less seniority move up as those with more seniority than they vacate a position.

What did a relative position of 50% "buy" at AWA vs. US?

You ignore the fact that the bottom 50% of US was about to move up rapidly while the bottom 50% of AWA would move up more uniformly, due to hiring patterns.

 

[cactusboy53]

Indeed, and at such a length as to entirely diminish any credibility within it. Your supposed, personal "ideology", as expressed, was nothing more than standard repetition of the anti-east manifesto/mantra. I'll go with Phoenix on this one, in that "Methinks the lady doth protest too much". 😉 No matter really.

Blah, blah, blah. Now where did that screw-into-the-ground sour-puss smiley go?

 

[Pi brat]

That would be interesting to know if true. I've heard all along that it was 2:1 but if it's not I'll stop using that as the metric. I assume if it is less than 2:1 then that was done to make it even more closely aligned with the slotting and percentile retention methodology which is good. Almost everybody stays at the same percent above and below the total population and then those with less seniority move up as those with more seniority than they vacate a position.

The Nicolau award is available, at great expense to the contributors, at cactuspilot.com. Look it up and do the analysis.

 

[nic4us]

What did a relative position of 50% "buy" at AWA vs. US?

You ignore the fact that the bottom 50% of US was about to move up rapidly while the bottom 50% of AWA would move up more uniformly, due to hiring patterns.

Speaking of ignoring facts.....you have the how blind am I to the facts meter pegged.

 

[CallawayGolf]

What did a relative position of 50% "buy" at AWA vs. US?

You ignore the fact that the bottom 50% of US was about to move up rapidly while the bottom 50% of AWA would move up more uniformly, due to hiring patterns.

If I ignore it it's because it has little relevance to the fairness and efficacy of the award. The east was rapidly moving backwards with 1700 on furlough, constricting operations and the real threat of liquidation happening absent a merger. The west was hiring and moving people to the left seat without the same levels of stagnation as the east. What might happen with or without the merger became irrelevant on 9/27/2005. Expectations had to change in light of the merger and were cemented by the parties allowing a neutral third party to determine the fairest means of combining tow different groups. All the rest is just meaningless subterfuge of living in the past that was or the future that will never be.