August 2013 Pilot Discussion

[CallawayGolf]

Nic is it. Hezekiah 2:29. It's over.

Looks like your Biblical literacy is about on par with you understanding the nature of binding arbitration or what constitutes a collective bargaining agreement under the RLA.

 

[Claxon]

Looks like your Biblical literacy is about on par with you understanding the nature of binding arbitration or what constitutes a collective bargaining agreement under the RLA.

Ask your father about binding arbitration and union successorship with regard to USAPA and an ALPA proposal unratified in a contract.

 

[Claxon]

You're treated poorly, on LOA93 because you're demanding it. You're getting what you asked for...in spades.

Nice argument. Now go take your meds, to quote one of yours or Snapfishs' comebacks.

 

[EastUS1]

Well there are lots of "to the victor goes the spoils" examples in the Bible.

There's also the bit concerning Cain and Abel. Your "You know why I hate you guys!?...I hate all of you'se!".."There is and east and west...and we hate you guys!" bunch might have properly considered that as well, especially before having some moronic munchkin declare that it will be "All out war!", forming up a pathetic little Fantasyland "army" of self-styled "spartans", denying jump seats, etc, ad nauseum....Just sayin'....

Over six years now of your petty little "war", and who's really gained anything from it?

"I am staring to think you might be confused by what it means to be a Christian however." I'd say there's a great deal of that going around, and has been for two thousand years or so.

"Paul definitively states that there is not one righteous person - not even one....." I've complete agreement with his wisdom there...regardless of how many childish T-shirts are ever printed up proclaiming otherwise. 😉

 

[CallawayGolf]

Ask your father about binding arbitration and union successorship with regard to USAPA and an ALPA proposal unratified in a contract.

I've told you before my father died when I was sixteen. Not much chance of asking him anything. However, are you saying the TA isn't a ratified collective bargaining agreement that USAPA inherited?

 

[luvthe9]

Are you suggesting that a single west FO would have displaced an active east CO as a direct result of the NIC? Are you stating that if the NIC went into effect on 6/1/2007 that a west pilot would have been able to hold a WB position that same month? The NIC protected 517 WB positions and also pushed every west pilot down in relative seniority compared to where they were on their AWA stand-alone list.

WINDFALL any way you look at for the west. They should have gone through with Project Zanzibar.

 

[luvthe9]

However, are you saying the TA isn't a ratified collective bargaining agreement that USAPA inherited?

The courts said that it's not inherited..

 

[Pi brat]

Are you stating that if the NIC went into effect on 6/1/2007 that a west pilot would have been able to hold a WB position that same month?
The NIC protected 517 WB positions and also pushed every west pilot down in relative seniority compared to where they were on their AWA stand-alone list.

Yes!

The Nic protected no F/O seats on the widebodies. If we had completed a joint contract and had a bid in 2007 a west F/O that had no short term expectation of flying a widebody could have stepped right into one. Dave Odell had what, a dozen guys below him the day the Nic came out? The next day he had over 300 active east pilots below him. What did that do to his bidding power, or what his new seniority could buy?

The vast majority of the west took a very small hit in relative position and it was very short lived. If implemented today the Nic would raise EF's by around 18% pts., at the expense of the east.

I really don't know where you guys get this stuff.

 

[CallawayGolf]

WINDFALL any way you look at for the west. They should have gone through with Project Zanzibar.

Easy to say/type. It's quite another thing to get anyone in a position of authroity to agree with you and vacate the award based on a clear violation of the ALPA merger policy or the Ts&Cs of the Transition Agreement. Why don't you get back to me when a a federal judge declares the NIC to have been a windfall for the west.

 

[Phoenix]

I've told you before my father died when I was sixteen. Not much chance of asking him anything. However, are you saying the TA isn't a ratified collective bargaining agreement that USAPA inherited?

Judge Silver told everyone the TA is binding on USAPA, and she said "being bound by the TA" meant nothing in the present case. And she IS literate. 🙂

 

[Pi brat]

Now a windfall is defined a sudden and unexpected gain without merit. There is no west pilot who suddenly and unexpectedly gained as a result of the SLI produced by the NIC.

Wrong. Odell jumped more than 300 ACTIVE positions overnight. And what merit gave him that right?

 

[Phoenix]

Easy to say/type. It's quite another thing to get anyone in a position of authroity to agree with you and vacate the award based on a clear violation of the ALPA merger policy or the Ts&Cs of the Transition Agreement. Why don't you get back to me when a a federal judge declares the NIC to have been a windfall for the west.

Something youse folks gots to get through your thick heads is that no one is trying to get the court to vacate the Nic. The plaintiff bares the burden to prove a DFR. You guys desperately want to implicitly assume guilt and begged the court to make Pat bare the burden of proving innocence. Send me a link. I'll donate to that strategy!

 

[Pi brat]

There are more than 260 direct quotations of the Old Testament in the 27 books of the New testament meaning the average Gospel or Epistle (Revelation included) cites the OT more than nine times each. Since some books are really short, the average is actually quite a bit higher. Jesus cites the OT as the ultimate authority even saying that not even the smallest little mark made in the OT would cease until heaven and earth pass away. So, I'm not sure why quoting the OT is out of bounds for a Christian. I am staring to think you might be confused by what it means to be a Christian however. Paul definitively states that there is not one righteous person - not even one and all fall short of God's perfect expectations. A Christian is one who abandons any sense or hope that he can attain to the righteousness of God of his own doing but instead accepts that 100% of the righteousness needed to be accepted by God will come from what Christ did on the cross. Not 50%/50%, not 1%/99%, not .000000001%/99.99999999%, but 0.00%/100% of His righteousness and not mine. That's what it means to be a "Christian".

Now a windfall is defined a sudden and unexpected gain without merit. There is no west pilot who suddenly and unexpectedly gained as a result of the SLI produced by the NIC. If it had been adopted in 2007 when it was released there would have been little to no movement at all. The east, and you in particular, want to look at 6 or more years of delay and say this if the NIC took effect now that there would be more movement than there would have been six years ago. That may well be true, but it would not be sudden (award issued in 2007) or unexpected (west pilots just like east pilots had an expectation to be able to move to the left seat when their relative position on the seniority list allowed for it). So there is no windfall. The both pilot groups were slotted in to a larger, integrated list and that was a direct result, good or bad, of the merger that was initiated on 9/27/2005; an event that created benefits and costs to both east and west pilots. Now which group is unwilling to accept the costs that come with the merger?

I was taught that a Christian is one that accepted Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior. Simple. What I've found over the years are people that say that, and believe it, but in no way live their life as if they have done it. Many use the Bible to justify continuing to live as they always did.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Yes!

The Nic protected no F/O seats on the widebodies. If we had completed a joint contract and had a bid in 2007 a west F/O that had no short term expectation of flying a widebody could have stepped right into one. Dave Odell had what, a dozen guys below him the day the Nic came out? The next day he had over 300 active east pilots below him. What did that do to his bidding power, or what his new seniority could buy?

The vast majority of the west took a very small hit in relative position and it was very short lived. If implemented today the Nic would raise EF's by around 18% pts., at the expense of the east.

I really don't know where you guys get this stuff.

Specifically, which west FO could have displaced an east FO WB position on which bid in 2007?

On 9/27/2005 there was a merger event between UA/HP that created an unmistakable career expectation for certain west pilots that transitioning to a FO/CO WB position was a distinct possibility based on the integration of the two companies and the two seniority lists. If HP standalone had acquired a WB aircraft and service to a location that made proper use of a WB, then the most senior west pilots would have expected to be the ones to fly it since no one was senior to them on a stand-alone basis. With the merger came WB positions which solidified the possibility. The only thing that would have prevented a west pilot from having a WB opportunity would be a SLI that specifically prevented that opportunity from being realized for west pilots. No dount that's what the east desired and no doubt the west did not. Then two years later with the two sides not agreeing on a solution other than to go to binding arbitration, the SLI award was issued which answered the question as to if a west pilot would have that WB opportunity or not.If you are in the top 1% for seniority of all pilots at your company, why would you have any expectation other than to be able to select the aircraft type, bases and routes in the company? The expectation was created on 9/27/2005 which means it would not be a windfall for a very senior west pilot to take a WB position in 2007 or 2008.

Relative position for SLI purposes is a one-time snapshot that becomes meaningless as the dynamic variables are constantly changing. NIC took a snapshot of the lists at the merger and slotted everyone on the list into a new, combined list. From that point on comparing relative positions against the static snapshot is an apples to oranges comparison. One day you could be in the fiftieth percentile and the next day a wave of furloughs happens and suddenly you are in the twentieth percentile or whatever. What really matters is that once the slotting occurs each person on the list goes up or down the the list right next to the guy one position above and right next to the person one position below. Unless one or both of those guy's exits the list, they will be there until the next merger or until you yourself exit the list. All three will have a chance to upgrade at roughly the same time. A west pilot certainly does not move up the list faster than the east guy above or below him.

 

[CallawayGolf]

I was taught that a Christian is one that accepted Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior. Simple. What I've found over the years are people that say that, and believe it, but in no way live their life as if they have done it. Many use the Bible to justify continuing to live as they always did.

I agree. So how was I being un-Christian by advocating that all parties live up to their agreements? Did I deny Christ as my Lord in so doing? What does one have to do with the other?

I agree, people, Christian or otherwise, twist and distort the Scriptures to justify almost anything if they so desire. Doesn't make them right nor does it turn fact into fiction or fiction into fact.