August 2013 Pilot Discussion

[Pi brat]

Besides asking for an expedited appeal schedule on the DJ when everyone else was focused on the LCC/AMR merger, what has USAPA done to hasten a definitive legal decision on the SLI question?

What would you expect them to do? Ignore ripeness, or jurisdiction?

 

[Piedmont1984]

Now now Phoenix, don't put words in my fingers. I didn't say the silent majority wants ALPA. Maybe they want another version of USAPA, a better, improved version - you know, a do over. I will say this, USAPA was not voted in by a landslide and that was when the idea of an in-house union was at the height of popularity here on campus. Gotta agree with LS, the report card is not good. Natives are restless. No merger and a card drive of some kind would not surprise me. Maybe the IBT will reconsider, I think they had an issue with the previous union president.

 

[CallawayGolf]

What would you expect them to do? Ignore ripeness, or jurisdiction?

I don't expect them to do anything given the purpose for which they were formed.

Still, if as the bargaining agent USAPA was legitimately interested in getting to a new contract - the main purpose for any bargaining agent - then some better progress could have been made in five years. Perhaps not filing the endless MTDs would be a start so as to actually get an answer on the DFR question once and for all. Not burdening the court proceedings with topics and extraneous witnesses that have nothing to do with the main issue at hand would be another. Not sure if it's ever been brought up before, but couldn't USAPA have filed their own DJ in say a NC court asking for relief from the west pilots' and the Company's claims that a non-NIC list would carry DFR liabilities? Couldn't USAPA also have fearlessly adopted the NIC for S22 and closed out all of the remaining sections in order to attain a TA - that by all the best predictions - would have been repeatedly rejected by the majority, thus proving that the NIC-inclusive JCBA could not be ratified?

I'm sure the RICO suit against the Cactus18, the USA Today ads, the illegal job actions against the status quo, suing the Company, demanding that executives be fired, and seeking to thwart any judicial answer on the NIC DFR were all supposed to help USAPA get a definitive resolution and move on to getting a contract with pay and work rule improvements, right?

P.S. I almost forgot. How did filing a LOA-93 grievance assist in in getting to a new and timely JCBA? If USAPA was interested in getting to a new contract in the shortest possible time, why file a pay grievance that had zero chance for success and would have no meaning once the JCBA came into effect?

 

[Pi brat]

I don't expect them to do anything given the purpose for which they were formed.

Still, if as the bargaining agent USAPA was legitimately interested in getting to a new contract - the main purpose for any bargaining agent - then some better progress could have been made in five years. Perhaps not filing the endless MTDs would be a start so as to actually get an answer on the DFR question once and for all. Not burdening the court proceedings with topics and extraneous witnesses that have nothing to do with the main issue at hand would be another. Not sure if it's ever been brought up before, but couldn't USAPA have filed their own DJ in say a NC court asking for relief from the west pilots' and the Company's claims that a non-NIC list would carry DFR liabilities? Couldn't USAPA also have fearlessly adopted the NIC for S22 and closed out all of the remaining sections in order to attain a TA - that by all the best predictions - would have been repeatedly rejected by the majority, thus proving that the NIC-inclusive JCBA could not be ratified?

I'm sure the RICO suit against the Cactus18, the USA Today ads, the illegal job actions against the status quo, suing the Company, demanding that executives be fired, and seeking to thwart any judicial answer on the NIC DFR were all supposed to help USAPA get a definitive resolution and move on to getting a contract with pay and work rule improvements, right?

P.S. I almost forgot. How did filing a LOA-93 grievance assist in in getting to a new and timely JCBA? If USAPA was interested in getting to a new contract in the shortest possible time, why file a pay grievance that had zero chance for success and would have no meaning once the JCBA came into effect?

How many of those had ANYTHING to do with getting a new contract? Point is, you guys filed an un-ripe lawsuit. USAPA attorneys will do just as you guys have-anything to win.

How did JMac asking Parker how to turn in east guys help with a contract or anything? How did you guys cheering the snapback help anything? When west guys fight the east on every single thing, how does that help us get a contract. Dust-Log.

 

[Piedmont1984]

Pi
I guess the answer to the question you posted the other day is - absent a merger the prospects are unclear at best and more likely pretty grim. You may get off LOA93 one day but not me.

 

[CallawayGolf]

How many of those had ANYTHING to do with getting a new contract? Point is, you guys filed an un-ripe lawsuit. USAPA attorneys will do just as you guys have-anything to win.

But the point - or the hypothesis - is that the Company and the west pilots generally want an actionable decision by the courts. The Company desires this so they can integrate Ops an finally have a single workforce, the last piece of the 2005 merger puzzle to complete. The west desires an answer in order to move on from the quagmire, even if it's not the rule of law as they expected it to be. The east comfortably delays getting to an actual answer on the most pressing question about the DFR vis-a-vis the NIC.

The statute of limitations vs. ripeness is a strange animal in this legal matter. There is no question that the west pilots had to file their DFR claim in order to not be prevented from bringing the claim once the JCBA became ratified. Furthermore, Wake considered it ripe; Bybee considered it ripe; Silver considered the Company's DJ ripe so it's not like AOL/Marty was somehow wrong for believing that the matter was ripe for judicial relief. Failure to file would have been a failure from which there may have been no means to recover from. West pilots certainly could not have allowed that to happen if they wanted to ensure their rights were protected under the TA.

 

[Piedmont1984]

Callaway

Looking back at several years do you have any regrets about the decisions your group has made? Today, using DOH, over 100 west pilots could hold W/B captain positions and virtually all your pilots could hold W/B right seat. Instead of one domicile you could choose any of four. The east attrition which is now in full force could have been shared. A united pilot group with the seniority issue behind them would be well on its way to a JCBA.

I consider you an honest and honorable adversary in this dispute. How many of your group are still unwavering in their support of the AOL strategy?

'84

 

[snapthis]

The statute of limitations vs. ripeness is a strange animal in this legal question. There is no question that the west pilots had to file their DFR claim in order to not be prevented from bringing the claim once the JCBA became ratified. Furthermore, Wake considered it ripe; Bybee considered it ripe; Silver considered the Company's DJ ripe so it's not like AOL/Marty was somehow wrong for believing that the matter was ripe for judicial relief.

Statute of limitiations vs ripness is key.

Good job trying to explain it and getting most of them to understand.

They can't even grasp the concept of binding arbitration.

Let's get on with this merger so we can get some intelligent representation with the APA.

Hey Pi, there was a rally today. Did you hear the news?

http://www.star-telegram.com/2013/09/18/5173531/american-us-airways-employees.html?rh=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plH-qdTAq2M

 

[EastUS1]

Hey Pi, there was a rally today. Did you hear the news?

http://www.star-tele...oyees.html?rh=1

Yeah. A whopping "couple of hundred" employees showed up, as reports indicate. What's the potentially combined employee numbers of AMR and US again? I'm sure the politicos in DC and all of Holder's pathetic ilk are currently cringing in fear at the massive display, even as we speak.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

You guys vote 98% in favor of an MOU that doesn't count. Dud you guys figure that out after you voted for it?

If the merger goes through, then yes, the MOU will indeed count in our lives going forward. When I said the MOU didn't count, I meant as evidence of usapa's ability to bring us something to vote on. Usapa was not the driver of that MOU and we all know it, I think. We did indeed vote for it, but that was only a technicality for all practicle purposes, the only thing usapa really did was allow a little side show on whether or not it actually got to us for the rank and file vote.

If the merger fails, we'll see if usapa is capable of bringing us anything. My money says no.

 

[EastUS1]

How did JMac asking Parker how to turn in east guys help with a contract or anything?

Perhaps more than any other single example; that told me everything I needed to know about exactly how worthwhile it'd ever be to have any supposed "unity" with such scum.

 

[Phoenix]

But the point - or the hypothesis - is that the Company and the west pilots generally want an actionable decision by the courts. ...

There is only one thing the company wants. Its green. That's just business.

 

[Phoenix]

Now now Phoenix, don't put words in my fingers. I didn't say the silent majority wants ALPA. Maybe they want another version of USAPA, a better, improved version - you know, a do over. I will say this, USAPA was not voted in by a landslide and that was when the idea of an in-house union was at the height of popularity here on campus. Gotta agree with LS, the report card is not good. Natives are restless. No merger and a card drive of some kind would not surprise me. Maybe the IBT will reconsider, I think they had an issue with the previous union president.

You shouldn't feel implicated. I wasn't even thinking of you in my response. 🙂

 

[Phoenix]

...

The statute of limitations vs. ripeness is a strange animal in this legal matter. There is no question that the west pilots had to file their DFR claim in order to not be prevented from bringing the claim once the JCBA became ratified. Furthermore, Wake considered it ripe; Bybee considered it ripe; Silver considered the Company's DJ ripe so it's not like AOL/Marty was somehow wrong for believing that the matter was ripe for judicial relief. Failure to file would have been a failure from which there may have been no means to recover from. West pilots certainly could not have allowed that to happen if they wanted to ensure their rights were protected under the TA.

I don't fault you guys at all for the first lawsuit. I don't fault you for trying vigorously to announce to the whole world, via a very costly lawsuit, that you believed you were harmed. Frankly it was the right thing to do at the time if you believed it.

What doesn't make sense to me is that you displayed equal and opposite vigor when casting a vote in favor of the MOU.

Its contradictory.. inconsistent.

 

[Phoenix]

If the merger goes through, then yes, the MOU will indeed count in our lives going forward. When I said the MOU didn't count, I meant as evidence of usapa's ability to bring us something to vote on. Usapa was not the driver of that MOU and we all know it, I think. We did indeed vote for it, but that was only a technicality for all practicle purposes, the only thing usapa really did was allow a little side show on whether or not it actually got to us for the rank and file vote.

If the merger fails, we'll see if usapa is capable of bringing us anything. My money says no.

If grumbling, divided unions drove negotiations with the company then surely we would all be driving Jags, live on the lake, have two vacation homes, and on every overnight we would have an open company bar tab at Hooters.