August 2013 Pilot Discussion

[flyer63]

I don't disagree, longevity should matter.

Just two questions though:

1) Did it go DOH?
2) Was either carrier so deep into bankruptcy it was days from liquidation?

Bean

Always an F en excuse. You accuse us of not agreeing to a BS flawed process. And everyone knows it was crooked from the beginning. longevity does matter, and ALPA merger policy was changed because it was a shame. Opportunities for the east on a ratio basis to capture their per merged attrition should of been employed. Now stop trying to step over other people's jobs who are 10 years older than you for your selfish gain. In no way can you justify it. Now go look in the mirror, I have lost respect for someone I thought at least got it. You will be just fine without the NIC. Most EASt will be screwed with it

 

[snapthis]

CAL list is out. longevity does matter...

Furloughs were not stapled. Only ones that don't get it are the west!

I get it. Convince a judge or jury that DOH is the Gold Standard after the latest arbitration.

Continental-United vs US Airways-HP
Different set of circumstances, different companies being merged, all which an arbitrator has to consider. In US Airways case, what were the career expectations of someone who spent years logging PIC time in a Lay-Z-Boy? What were the the career expectations of that pilot who's company was days away from liquidation?

The arbitration is done. Get over it.

The whining is getting old.

 

[flyer63]

I had 10 years of longevity at the time of the merger, try again to take advantage of the tragic results of 9-11

 

[snapthis]

Proof of liquidation please.

Thank Doug Parker.

 

[snapthis]

I had 10 years of longevity at the time of the merger, try again to take advantage of the tragic results of 9-11

I'm not trying to take advantage. Having been laid off, not being able to find a job in 1990, I've been there. Furloughed.

Had to start over. No credit given for my time off.

 

[flyer63]

I'm not trying to take advantage. Having been laid off, not being able to find a job in 1990, I've been there. Furloughed.

Had to start over. No credit given for my time off.

That's exactly what the NIC does , it staples every east furloughed behind AWA new hires with not one day in cockpit. You guys just don't get it. It's clear ALPA does by placing UAL furloughed top guy at 70 percent on list and changing flawed policy.

 

[Pi brat]

2) Was either carrier so deep into bankruptcy it was days from liquidation?

Bean

Obviously not as it did not liquidate, right?

 

[flyer63]

And UAL was not knocking the cover off the ball between 2001 and 2009. UAL furloughed 2172 pilots in 2002. . uAL was in chp 11 from 2002 to 2006. In 2008 and 2009 UAL furloughed again. UAL lost 7.8 billion in the decade. That didn't stop the arbitrators from putting the most senior UAL furloughed pilot at 70 percent.

 

[Pi brat]

And UAL was not knocking the cover off the ball between 2001 and 2009. UAL furloughed 2172 pilots in 2002. . uAL was in chp 11 from 2002 to 2006. In 2008 and 2009 UAL furloughed again. UAL lost 7.8 billion in the decade. That didn't stop the arbitrators from putting the most senior UAL furloughed pilot at 70 percent.

And that was not the first time. Despite our warriors claims it happened with Hughes Airwest/Republic and Pan Am/National.

"A second issue, labelled "explosive" by Gill, concerned the manner in which approximately 400 Pan Am pilots on furlough at the time of the merger were to be integrated. This large number of furloughees resulted from Pan Am's switch from smaller planes to B747s, the largest wide-bodied aircraft, and Pan Am's poor financial health in the preceding few years. Gill stated that this furlough situation created"a head-on clash over the relative equities as between large numbers of National airmen hired between 1968 and 1978 and actively employed at the time of the merger, and large numbers of these Pan Am furloughees with earlier dates of hire who still have recall rights but who brought no active jobs to the merger." (Gill Op. at 8).
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Gill's solution was to calculate the Pan Am furloughees' length of service at the time of their recall, and to slot them into the list by comparing their length of service with that of the active airmen at that time. (An exception was made for about 34 furloughed Pan Am pilots who had received notice of recall before January 19, 1980). He indicated a willingness, had the parties (or the "JANUS" group, representing the furloughees) submitted a proposal estimating the likely dates of recall of the furloughees and the likely length of service of the active pilots at those dates, to integrate the furloughees on that basis. However, no such proposal was forthcoming "[p]erhaps because of the difficulties in fashioning projections of that nature." Id. at 41. While noting that his solution to the furloughee problem might seem novel, Gill observed that
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"the problem itself is novel--there has not been any previous merger case called to my attention where such massive numbers of furloughees, with such long periods of being off the property, were pitted against active airmen from the other airline who brought current jobs to the merger."

Back around 2005 our own aquagreen predicted a similar slot for our group, with him being slotted hundreds of numbers junior to where he was, and in fact junior to the most senior east "furloughees". I put that in " because they were not furloughed on the SL Nic used for his integration.

 

[dariencc]

And that was not the first time. Despite our warriors claims it happened with Hughes Airwest/Republic and Pan Am/National.

You're right. And it happened in another merger, right on this property. Allegheny-Mohawk.

In the case of Allegheny-Mohawk, the list originally stapled the Mohawk furloughees on the bottom. However, after a protracted battle, the list was changed and the furloughed Mohawkers were placed according to their date-of-hire.

 

[EastUS1]

snapthis: The whining is getting old.

..... Having been laid off, not being able to find a job in 1990, I've been there. Furloughed.

Had to start over. No credit given for my time off.

"not being able to find a job in 1990". Interesting, but not surprising. Thank goodness for AWA!....And you're right about one thing; "The whining is getting old." 😉

 

[nycbusdriver]

Who says a war hero can't evolve into a crotchety, vindictive curmudgeon?

 

[Pi brat]

I'm not trying to take advantage. Having been laid off, not being able to find a job in 1990, I've been there. Furloughed.

Had to start over. No credit given for my time off.

Was your time off at AWA ir another company? US didn't liquidate. If it had I might agree. Our assets are still in use.

 

[Phoenix]

And UAL was not knocking the cover off the ball between 2001 and 2009. UAL furloughed 2172 pilots in 2002. . uAL was in chp 11 from 2002 to 2006. In 2008 and 2009 UAL furloughed again. UAL lost 7.8 billion in the decade. That didn't stop the arbitrators from putting the most senior UAL furloughed pilot at 70 percent.

I don't disagree, longevity should matter.

Just two questions though:

1) Did it go DOH?
2) Was either carrier so deep into bankruptcy it was days from liquidation?

Bean

Always an F en excuse. You accuse us of not agreeing to a BS flawed process. And everyone knows it was crooked from the beginning. longevity does matter, and ALPA merger policy was changed because it was a shame. Opportunities for the east on a ratio basis to capture their per merged attrition should of been employed. Now stop trying to step over other people's jobs who are 10 years older than you for your selfish gain. In no way can you justify it. Now go look in the mirror, I have lost respect for someone I thought at least got it. You will be just fine without the NIC. Most EASt will be screwed with it

That's exactly what the NIC does , it staples every east furloughed behind AWA new hires with not one day in cockpit. You guys just don't get it. It's clear ALPA does by placing UAL furloughed top guy at 70 percent on list and changing flawed policy.

bottom on list 12,155.

bottom furloughed guy 8467

if this is how ours was done we wouldn't be at odds now...

west windfall

"Quick glance. Furloughess got full credit and put above active pilots. Seems that UAL got ahead overall."

Source private. It was not chip though.

"FWIW...Furloughees not stapled, still trying to figure the rest of it it out."

Source

Furloghed UAL went above some CAL Captains, is what I heard. Not from chip though.

Marty says, .... "Yes Judge Silver. The UAL/CAL SLI method may in fact be a very good example of a LAP*....
.... but it is most definitely should never be seen as a LUP^. No never. And more importantly the UAL/CAL method should never be considered an example of why ALPA merger policy was changed. This had nothing to do with preventing windfalls and providing a fair and equitable SLI. No. Not at all. Don't fall for it Judge. Its a trick... just smoke and mirrors. "




*LAP - Legitimate Arbitrator Purpose
^LAP - Legitimate Union Purpose

 

[Reed Richards]

[font="Arial""]In the late 80s ALPA took the UAL scabs and MOVED them to the bottom. They took a ratified contract and list and changed it! It got them in litigation with the scabs, and they were actually ruled to have committed a DFR. That is until SCOTUS threw it out! Doing what they did served a legitimate union purpose! I contend unions have an ongoing responsibility to their members, and can try and better them at any point in any process. At USAPA we intervened before a list was even ratified, at UAL the union intervened after the fact. We will have a common result. And how about that new UAL list, furlough time actually means something now, even at ALPA! RR[/font]