August 2013 Pilot Discussion

[flyer63]

Actually you are wrong. SOME of our furloughs got SOME credit for LOS. They did not get DOH, nor did they leapfrog in front of CAL captains. I think you should have gotten some credit for LOS. You should have asked for it. Maybe you would have gotten what our bottom guys got. They will be junior NB f/o's. I don't think you were entitled to what you were asking... straight DOH. I didn't think you were entitled to it when you wanted the same thing from UAL in 2000. You should have tried a different approach. You screwed yourselves and I have no sympathy for that.

I also said that binding is binding. And so it will be at UAL. I also said that I expect to be pretty much where I was before the merger, which I am. Just as your guys should have been. Bottom guys at the bottom. Top guys at the top. I also said I did not nor would not support screwing the CAL pilots and suddenly leapfrog from Medium Gauge f/o to captain overnight. But you wanted to jump from junior reserve NB f/o to 320 captain at the expense of others based solely on your DOH. Show me where the UA proposal was anything close to that. If you are going to call me a hypocrite, prove your work.

No hypocrisy whatsoever. The UA outcome came out NOTHING like you were asking for in your arbitration. Regardless of LOS or merger policy. It very closely resembles a relative seniority solution.

Hope you enjoy sleeping in the bed you made for the rest of your career. You were over-reaching pinheads in 2000, and still are to this day.

I want nothing to do with PHX and CR's prevent me from taking a PHX capt slot. I just want the east CAPT slot I have been waiting 25 years for and don't want Mr Odell going in front of me. You are still a hypocrite

 

[traderjake]

Is this what courtship looks like?

Yes, when they're grousing.

 

[JODONN1035]

Actually you are wrong. SOME of our furloughs got SOME credit for LOS. They did not get DOH, nor did they leapfrog in front of CAL captains. I think you should have gotten some credit for LOS. You should have asked for it. Maybe you would have gotten what our bottom guys got. They will be junior NB f/o's. I don't think you were entitled to what you were asking... straight DOH. I didn't think you were entitled to it when you wanted the same thing from UAL in 2000. You should have tried a different approach. You screwed yourselves and I have no sympathy for that.

I also said that binding is binding. And so it will be at UAL. I also said that I expect to be pretty much where I was before the merger, which I am. Just as your guys should have been. Bottom guys at the bottom. Top guys at the top. I also said I did not nor would not support screwing the CAL pilots and suddenly leapfrog from Medium Gauge f/o to captain overnight. But you wanted to jump from junior reserve NB f/o to 320 captain at the expense of others based solely on your DOH. Show me where the UA proposal was anything close to that. If you are going to call me a hypocrite, prove your work.

No hypocrisy whatsoever. The UA outcome came out NOTHING like you were asking for in your arbitration. Regardless of LOS or merger policy. It very closely resembles a relative seniority solution.

Hope you enjoy sleeping in the bed you made for the rest of your career. You were over-reaching pinheads in 2000, and still are to this day.

 

[traderjake]

I just want the east CAPT slot I have been waiting 25 years for and don't want Mr Odell going in front of me.

The merger changed everything and Parker didnt do it out of charity. It was best for AWA. From that day forward everything changed.

 

[CallawayGolf]

The east seem to crave all of the benefits of the merger but are unwilling to pay any of the costs. The two posts tie it all together nicely. "I want everything remain as if there never was a merger, except of course for that impending liquidation that was coming absent the merger.

 

[flyer63]

call away, never said that a simple slotting with pain on both sides would of accomplished that. The staple received, not so much

 

[nic4us]

That was not a liquidation.

I suggest you look up the meaning of "liquidation".

 

[nic4us]

I want nothing to do with PHX and CR's prevent me from taking a PHX capt slot. I just want the east CAPT slot I have been waiting 25 years for and don't want Mr Odell going in front of me. You are still a hypocrite

I suggest you look up the definition of "hypocrite".

That and a friendly reminder that Odell is not "going" in front of you.....he is already senior to you, and will remain so.

 

[traderjake]

The staple received, not so much

You mean the 517 that got stapled on top of the list?

 

[luvthe9]

except of course for that impending liquidation that was coming absent the merger.

I assume you mean AWA "Project Zanzibar", selective memory?

 

[snapthis]

Actually you are wrong. SOME of our furloughs got SOME credit for LOS. They did not get DOH, nor did they leapfrog in front of CAL captains. I think you should have gotten some credit for LOS. You should have asked for it. Maybe you would have gotten what our bottom guys got. They will be junior NB f/o's. I don't think you were entitled to what you were asking... straight DOH. I didn't think you were entitled to it when you wanted the same thing from UAL in 2000. You should have tried a different approach. You screwed yourselves and I have no sympathy for that.

I also said that binding is binding. And so it will be at UAL. I also said that I expect to be pretty much where I was before the merger, which I am. Just as your guys should have been. Bottom guys at the bottom. Top guys at the top. I also said I did not nor would not support screwing the CAL pilots and suddenly leapfrog from Medium Gauge f/o to captain overnight. But you wanted to jump from junior reserve NB f/o to 320 captain at the expense of others based solely on your DOH. Show me where the UA proposal was anything close to that. If you are going to call me a hypocrite, prove your work.

No hypocrisy whatsoever. The UA outcome came out NOTHING like you were asking for in your arbitration. Regardless of LOS or merger policy. It very closely resembles a relative seniority solution.

Hope you enjoy sleeping in the bed you made for the rest of your career. You were over-reaching pinheads in 2000, and still are to this day.

Aren't you glad you did not get stuck with them? It doesn't matter who they leached on to they would have sucked all the benefits of the merger if they could. If they did not get their way and your SLI ended up in years of court battles you would have heard ALPA got it wrong and a biased Rocky Mountain judge got it wrong. It's US against anybody doesn't agree with them.

 

[flyer63]

You mean the 517 that got stapled on top of the list?

That was a joke and another mistake by st NIC. Most of those guys will be gone in short order. Should of done a slotting from the top, with east and west and just fenced
the WB's .

 

[flyer63]

I suggest you look up the definition of "hypocrite".

That and a friendly reminder that Odell is not "going" in front of you.....he is already senior to you, and will remain so.

Ya in your mind is he.... But your the biggest douche on the west so don't really care what you think

 

[nycbusdriver]

OK, that's a true statement. But consider the facts.

The two mergers were quite different. Not just the fact that one was in bankruptcy, but also that the merger policy was different, AND (not to be minimized) the east never considered or suggested anything but a hard line, all-or-nothing approach. So in the end Nicolau gave you nothing. (With regard to DOH/LOS. He did give you over 500 positions on top and 2 to 1 upgrades, right?)

So you admit that the award was vindictive, rather than an attempt at fairness. I totally agree with that assessment. Nicolau's job was to arbitrate, not punish.

The 500 positions at the top? Nicolau's own rationale was that those were based on the wide-body flying. Where is DOH in that? It was slotting by equipment at its very purest. The big airplanes go to the front of the line. AWA didn't have any, so there was no one to slot from their list.

Decide which side you're on and get back to us with cogent arguments. Until then, STFU.

 

[nycbusdriver]

"Regrettably but inevitably, there will be perceived disparities and mismatches by individuals on both sides under the merged list. George Nicolau's four basic verities of ISL arbitration are as apt and vital today as they were nearly a quarter of a century ago: each case turns on its own facts; the objective is to make the integration air and equitable; the proposals advanced by those in contest rarely meet that standard; and the end result, no matter how crafted, never commands universal acceptance. See
Federal Express and Flying Tiger Pilots, (1990, at pp. 27-28.)."

As quoted: "the objective is to make the integration air and equitable"

And: "each case turns on its own facts"

So, then. Nicolau "punished" the east pilots simply because of their hard stance on DOH? Is that really a fact germane to fair and equitable?

He is a vindictive old curmudgeon. Plain and simple. The board in the UAL/CAL SLI said so in not so many words.