August 2013 Pilot Discussion

[CallawayGolf]

Wrong. Odell jumped more than 300 ACTIVE positions overnight. And what merit gave him that right?

Why did you have to include and emphasize the word ACTIVE to make your point? Were the 299 pilots below Odell active pilots on 9/27/2005? If the company hires 300 new pilots tomorrow, will the bottom active pilot today also jump up 300 positions just like Odell?

 

[Pi brat]

Specifically, which west FO could have displaced an east FO WB position on which bid in 2007?

On 9/27/2005 there was a merger event between UA/HP that created an unmistakable career expectation for certain west pilots that transitioning to a FO/CO WB position was a distinct possibility based on the integration of the two companies and the two seniority lists. If HP standalone had acquired a WB aircraft and service to a location that made proper use of a WB, then the most senior west pilots would have expected to be the ones to fly it since no one was senior to them on a stand-alone basis. With the merger came WB positions which solidified the possibility. The only thing that would have prevented a west pilot from having a WB opportunity would be a SLI that specifically prevented that opportunity from being realized for west pilots. No dount that's what the east desired and no doubt the west did not. Then two years later with the two sides not agreeing on a solution other than to go to binding arbitration, the SLI award was issued which answered the question as to if a west pilot would have that WB opportunity or not.If you are in the top 1% for seniority of all pilots at your company, why would you have any expectation other than to be able to select the aircraft type, bases and routes in the company? The expectation was created on 9/27/2005 which means it would not be a windfall for a very senior west pilot to take a WB position in 2007 or 2008.

Relative position for SLI purposes is a one-time snapshot that becomes meaningless as the dynamic variables are constantly changing. NIC took a snapshot of the lists at the merger and slotted everyone on the list into a new, combined list. From that point on comparing relative positions against the static snapshot is an apples to oranges comparison. One day you could be in the fiftieth percentile and the next day a wave of furloughs happens and suddenly you are in the twentieth percentile or whatever. What really matters is that once the slotting occurs each person on the list goes up or down the the list right next to the guy one position above and right next to the person one position below. Unless one or both of those guy's exits the list, they will be there until the next merger or until you yourself exit the list. All three will have a chance to upgrade at roughly the same time. A west pilot certainly does not move up the list faster than the east guy above or below him.

Wait a minute. Aren't you the one that said the east wanted the benefit of the merger keeping them from filing chp7? What's the difference in what you are talking about with "merged expectations?"

If a bid had come out in the fall of 2007 with reductions in PHX, any number of west F/Os could have displaced current east widebody F/Os. Any number of them could have taken a vacancy on the widebody. Something they did not have a short term expectation of. I've never said they shouldn't ever expect it.

You talk about relative position and what it does and what it should and shouldn't do. You ignore that previous and post-nic arbitrators did differently that what you claim is valid. Have you read my posts on Gill? Are you aware of the UA/CO SLI? Have you read the East MEC report to the ALPA BOD that clearly and correctly outlines the west windfall? If not, get educated.

 

[Pi brat]

I agree. So how was I being un-Christian by advocating that all parties live up to their agreements? Did I deny Christ as my Lord in so doing? What does one have to do with the other?

I agree, people, Christian or otherwise, twist and distort the Scriptures to justify almost anything if they so desire. Doesn't make them right nor does it turn fact into fiction or fiction into fact.

You are being un-Christian in ignoring a wrong and trying to justify it. IMHO as always.

 

[Pi brat]

Why did you have to include and emphasize the word ACTIVE to make your point? Were the 299 pilots below Odell active pilots on 9/27/2005?

There were on the 2007 list that Nicolau used to form his list. You know the one that he said more reflected the "merged realities of the airline?" Have you actually read the Nicolau opinion and award? He only held one group to their 2005 status, the formerly furloughed east pilots.

 

[luvthe9]

Callaway your number one guy got almost a two year windfall, he was placed in with the 81 hires, two free years. Windfall most would say. You did not even exist till 83.

 

[Pi brat]

A west pilot certainly does not move up the list faster than the east guy above or below him.

He moves up much more rapidly than he could have expected at AWA. The east guy beside him has his movement and achievement slowed by the placement.

Read this:

http://leonidas.cactuspilots.us/West_Pilot_DFR_DJ/Doc_74-6_Final_Executive_Council_Presentation_18May07.pdf

 

[Phoenix]

Looks like your Biblical literacy is about on par with you understanding the nature of binding arbitration or what constitutes a collective bargaining agreement under the RLA.

Speaking of literacy, do you have a copy of the Nic grievance denial letter that we can read together? 🙂

 

[Claxon]

Speaking of literacy, do you have a copy of the Nic grievance denial letter that we can read together? 🙂

According to Nic4 US it was mysteriously on one hand the only accepted seniority list at LCC as well as the officially rejected seniority list at LCC in the same timeframe. Too bad the company refuses to publish it and handed it back with a NO thank you note. DENIED.

 

[Phoenix]

..... Why don't you get back to me when a a federal judge declares the NIC to have been a windfall for the west.

You still don't get it. You are smarter than this. Nobody cares if a court ever declares the West got a windfall. We said it years ago and we do not care if anyone ever agrees with us. You guys assume USAPA is guilty until they prove their innocence. Big mistake. Blow up in face big. Your law team are amateurs.

 

[CallawayGolf]

PI ...

Wait a minute. Aren't you the one that said the east wanted the benefit of the merger keeping them from filing chp7? What's the difference in what you are talking about with "merged expectations?"

Yes; Some things like having a non-liquidated company to work for is a benefit just like having a larger company with more crew bases and WB A/C is a merger benefit. Having to be integrated into a single seniority list with 517 protected positions is a cost. Both benefits and costs come with the merger, just like I said.

If a bid had come out in the fall of 2007 with reductions in PHX, any number of west F/Os could have displaced current east widebody F/Os. Any number of them could have taken a vacancy on the widebody. Something they did not have a short term expectation of. I've never said they shouldn't ever expect it.

Vacancy not displacement/downgrading right? Again, just like I said.

You talk about relative position and what it does and what it should and shouldn't do. You ignore that previous and post-nic arbitrators did differently that what you claim is valid. Have you read my posts on Gill? Are you aware of the UA/CO SLI? Have you read the East MEC report to the ALPA BOD that clearly and correctly outlines the west windfall? If not, get educated.

I read the NIC award multiple times until it got to the names I don’t know. I have not read the East MEC report and wouldn’t know where to find it. Is the east MEC a more reliable, unbiased source than USAPA communications or even AOL?

 

[CallawayGolf]

You are being un-Christian in ignoring a wrong and trying to justify it. IMHO as always.

I'll have to disagree on the theological vernacular you use on my or anyone's salvation status, but still respond -

I see a unquestionable wrong in not honoring agreements. I don't the same categorical wrong (or any) in an east pilot still having a job for the rest of their working years but not being able to upgrade to the left seat or to a WB when such a circumstance is the result of a merger that a) kept everyone's job at AAA and b )required a SLI be decided by a neutral arbitrator who issued a fully legal and compliant award because the two parties could not negotiate their own solution without 3rd party intervention.

 

[CallawayGolf]

There were on the 2007 list that Nicolau used to form his list. You know the one that he said more reflected the "merged realities of the airline?" Have you actually read the Nicolau opinion and award? He only held one group to their 2005 status, the formerly furloughed east pilots.

Perhaps because the former were all active at the merger date and making inconsequential adjustments for the current situation simply cleaned up the award list whereas changing the latter would be a fundamental change in the logical basis of the award.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Callaway your number one guy got almost a two year windfall, he was placed in with the 81 hires, two free years. Windfall most would say. You did not even exist till 83.

But HP had a #1 pilot in 1983, right? There was a seniority integration and not a DOH integration, right?

 

[nic4us]

No. it's based on logic and fact.


And prove we could have had parity at the merger date. There is no way that would have happen because Parker wanted our subsidy. You are full of ####, scab.

No logic or fact involved in your whining.

You are a hypocrite, and make your arguments very poorly.

For example, you would like me to prove you could have had parity, a reasonable assumption being that negotiations were taking place, yet, you also vehemently deny that Parker said without the merger US was cho.7 and done.

There is no "windfall" in the Nic, another of your baseless claims, yet you claim it as fact. The fact is you are a whining malcontent who has lost all credibility and will never be trusted by any pilot outside the east's uscaba camp.

 

[nic4us]

WINDFALL any way you look at for the west. They should have gone through with Project Zanzibar.

They were too busy buying your defunct airline.

And, WOW, anks to the uscabians, have made huge profits and everybody got rich.