August 2013 Pilot Discussion

[Pi brat]

PHX is correct, elections (even by strict definition) are polls. By a large majority the East pilots voted on an MOU that indeed took us off our current stalemate and introduced change. The West Class voted for that process by an even larger majority. Watch what people do, not how they “poll.” The West Class, having supposedly wanting to move on, as 84 has suggested, choose to sue and trick fu…k the system to get exactly what they originally wanted . In fact "NIC or nothing." I have no question about what the East and West pilots want their reps to do. The MOU was a poll, in fact a poll that was run twice on the BPR level. RR

It think the 2 to 1 defeat of the Fergi/Koontz ticket after years of this battle was the clearest poll we've had.

 

[CallawayGolf]

It think the 2 to 1 defeat of the Fergi/Koontz ticket after years of this battle was the clearest poll we've had.

I concur. To me that vote proved that each side is at least as entrenched as they were in 2007. Perhaps even more so as who wants to be in this for five years and having lost countless thousands of dollars in take-home pay only to give up before a federal court makes a ruling one way or the other?

The vote on the MOU seemed to indicate that both sides want this resolved more quickly than it has been going compared to USAPA's strategy of endless delays.

 

[Pi brat]

I concur. To me that vote proved that each side is at least as entrenched as they were in 2007. Perhaps even more so as who wants to be in this for five years and having lost countless thousands of dollars in take-home pay only to give up before a federal court makes a ruling one way or the other?

The vote on the MOU seemed to indicate that both sides want this resolved more quickly than it has been going compared to USAPA's strategy of endless delays.

I read the first part of your post and think we are agreeing then get down to the last line. What about AOL's involvement in the endless delays? What about their petition to the SCOTUS even though they knew it would fail? What about helping write a MOU, having your attorneys look it over, encouraging your members to vote for it, all with the intention of turning around and claiming it was illegal AFTER it passed.(kind of like watching the captain taxi off the taxiway then saying "Yeah, I knew he was going off the grass, but I thought it would help my career progression.") You have a serious case of ""Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?"

Judge Wake's failure has given both sides hope that they will win it all and left us entangled in the legal system.

 

[Piedmont1984]

The CLT reps were indeed elected by a majority. That is why they are reps and any apparent desire to assume the non-voters opposed the CLT reps.... well, they didn't. Non-voters in effect cast their vote for whoever wins. Silence is consent.

Why would you expect any rep (even Hummel) to spend union money to solicit the opinions of those who don't care enough to even vote? Silence is indeed consent.

Yes, the CLT reps were indeed elected by the majority of those who bothered to vote, but not by the majority of eligible voters. Nevertheless, they won fair and square. My point is there are good and bad polls. The voting participation has been steadily declining here. Silence can also represent apathy and resignation. The so called silent majority still pay dues and should not be ignored.

 

[Piedmont1984]

PHX is correct, elections (even by strict definition) are polls. By a large majority the East pilots voted on an MOU that indeed took us off our current stalemate and introduced change. The West Class voted for that process by an even larger majority. Watch what people do, not how they “poll.” The West Class, having supposedly wanting to move on, as 84 has suggested, choose to sue and trick fu…k the system to get exactly what they originally wanted . In fact "NIC or nothing." I have no question about what the East and West pilots want their reps to do. The MOU was a poll, in fact a poll that was run twice on the BPR level. RR

Correct, there was much better turnout (representation) in the MOU vote compared to the CLT election. That tells us the majority want real change/progress. Which, by implication, means a return to the status quo may be viewed by the majority as a state of diminishing returns. I agree that the west is trying to use the MOU vote to their advantage.

 

[Phoenix]

Yes, the CLT reps were indeed elected by the majority of those who bothered to vote, but not by the majority of eligible voters. Nevertheless, they won fair and square. My point is there are good and bad polls. The voting participation has been steadily declining here. Silence can also represent apathy and resignation. The so called silent majority still pay dues and should not be ignored.

The silent majority is heard loud and clear. They are happy as clams. That's the way it works. 🙂

 

[Black Swan]

The silent majority is heard loud and clear. They are happy as clams. That's the way it works. 🙂

Maybe this quote from Donald Rumsfeld will add some clarity to this entire seniority mess...

"There are known knowns; there are things we know that we know.
There are known unknowns; that are to say, there are things we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns- there are things we do not know we do not know."

 

[Piedmont1984]

Or, the silent majority has, for a variety of reasons some we know and others we do not know - clammed up.

 

[CallawayGolf]

I read the first part of your post and think we are agreeing then get down to the last line. What about AOL's involvement in the endless delays? What about their petition to the SCOTUS even though they knew it would fail? What about helping write a MOU, having your attorneys look it over, encouraging your members to vote for it, all with the intention of turning around and claiming it was illegal AFTER it passed.(kind of like watching the captain taxi off the taxiway then saying "Yeah, I knew he was going off the grass, but I thought it would help my career progression.") You have a serious case of ""Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?"

Judge Wake's failure has given both sides hope that they will win it all and left us entangled in the legal system.

It should be obvious that the majority on both sides desire a win and are fully committed to see the battle through to the end without faltering or capitulating. Here's the difference IMO - USAPA/majority of east pilots desire an immediate win but will settle for a protracted battle if there is any possibility that they will lose in the final decision. On the other hand, the majority of west pilots seem to want an answer and a final decision right away even if that decision does not go in their favor.

Note that doesn't mean one side is appeal happy and the other isn't. I think we all expect district court decisions and perhaps even circuit court decisions to be appealed by either side until all legal avenues have been exhausted given what is at stake here with so many pilots perceiving a loss to be devastating to their careers for many years to come.

So I see it that the west wants a decision now and will live with the loss if that's the final outcome. The east wants the Company to capitulate now and accept a non-NIC scheme without going through the legal challenges to that position tendered by the Company and/or the west pilots. Absent the Company capitulating on S22, USAPA/east is quite comfortable taking the legal questions at hand as slowly as possible. Besides asking for an expedited appeal schedule on the DJ when everyone else was focused on the LCC/AMR merger, what has USAPA done to hasten a definitive legal decision on the SLI question?

 

[nycbusdriver]

This union was founded on the principle that unlike ALPA, the union would diligently and frequently take a measure of rank and file sentiment and comply with the same.

I think that went out the window on April 19, 2008, along with transparency.

 

[Phoenix]

Maybe this quote from Donald Rumsfeld will add some clarity to this entire seniority mess...

"There are known knowns; there are things we know that we know.
There are known unknowns; that are to say, there are things we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns- there are things we do not know we do not know."

Rumsfeld was Sec Def and had the responsibility to mitigate risk while attacking the enemy. USAPA reps are supporting all pilots on one team.

Its probably a good bet for them to work on the MOU for now. It is what we all voted for. A means to get past the log jam. It's very straight forward language and they should defend it as written and ratified. Why waste money looking under rocks trying to find some unknown/unexpressed alternative.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

Usapa is a dead end. Impotent and incapable are about the only adjectives I can come up with to describe this union, no disrespect intended to any hard working committee members from either coast doing fine leg work and helping pilots in a day to day way. Assuming no merger, let's get a card drive and vote in alpo again. Have them put us right back into JNC sans the Prater sanctioned power play. I think that is the quickest(not quick by any means though) way to end up with a vote on a contract so we can all put our money where our mouths are. Try not to laugh.

Ps. The legal system is just as useless as usapa for gettting us anywhere. And anyone from either coast that thinks they may be on the verge of 'winning?' If we remain usapa, let's talk again in another five years......

 

[Phoenix]

Usapa is a dead end. Impotent and incapable are about the only adjectives I can come up with to describe this union, no disrespect intended to any hard working committee members from either coast doing fine leg work and helping pilots in a day to day way. Assuming no merger, let's get a card drive and vote in alpo again. Have them put us right back into JNC sans the Prater sanctioned power play. I think that is the quickest(not quick by any means though) way to end up with a vote on a contract so we can all put our money where our mouths are. Try not to laugh.

Ps. The legal system is just as useless as usapa for gettting us anywhere. And anyone from either coast that thinks they may be on the verge of 'winning?' If we remain usapa, let's talk again in another five years......

Yeah, why wait? The BPR should secretly form a pact swearing allegiance to ALPA (since that's what the silent majority really wants ). And then in true ALPA fashion they could secretly beg DUI to send them a contract, any contract. Just let my daddy vote, already!!!!!

We can't stand by the MOU, ALPA would never have allow such a good contract offer to see the light of day. We don't deserve it and won't take advantage of DUI!

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

Yeah, why wait? The BPR should secretly form a pact swearing allegiance to ALPA (since that's what the silent majority really wants ). And then in true ALPA fashion they could secretly beg DUI to send them a contract, any contract. Just let my daddy vote, already!!!!!

We can't stand by the MOU, ALPA would never have allow such a good contract offer to see the light of day. We don't deserve it and won't take advantage of DUI!

Usapa can't even bring us anything to vote on, good, bad, or indifferent. The MOU doesn't count, I think most of us know how that really came about. The don't laugh part was a joke, I knew good and well many were gonna laugh🙂

At any rate, my post was more a musing than anything else. Even by voting alpo back in, I don't think returning to JNC as we were is possible anyway.

 

[Phoenix]

You guys vote 98% in favor of an MOU that doesn't count. Dud you guys figure that out after you voted for it?