August 2013 Pilot Discussion

[Phoenix]

First, thanks for using the word "we" even though you did not vote for the MOU. You are one of the few participating CLT pilots in our union. And especially thanks for voting either way, it indeed was a very personal decision. If the POR is restructured, as you opine, would you rather go into new negotiations with the MOU or LOA 93 as our last bargaining product? Could we recapture the gains of the MOU in a new agreement, could we get improvements? Big maybe. But being an armchair member of the NAC I would sure as heck rather be in the room with the MOU looming than just taunts and bravado as to what we "deserve." The MOU set a benchmark for a point in time. Things may change, but in the end the MOU could at least be a reference point for “where we were.” RR

I really don't get the argument of false choice. Why do people fall for it.

Management has been acting like a slime bag for over a decade toward us, but negotiates three labor contracts with AMR employees in a matter of weeks, and even agrees to pay taxes for the $100K stake that the APA pilots get. I don't know what the he.l.l the APA had when it went into negotiations, but if anyone figures it out lets get some of that sh.i.t instead of fighting about choosing between having LOA93 or the MOU as a starting point.

The APA was/is in bankruptcy for crying out load, how much weaker a position can one hold? I am starting to think, as in most of life, one's external circumstances have far less to do with how a person/group acts than do the internal composition of said person or group. Its internal. The MOU LOA 93 stuff don't mean shiite to negotiations. IMHO. 🙂

 

[Phoenix]

The new 'boys' in CLT will get us more. They know better and are far smarter than the company and the APA boys.

This may drag out for some time.

I'm sure the CLT crew will snatch defeat from the jaws of victory, just like the pension and LOA93.

You guys have been engaged in friendly fire sniper activity since the very beginning. Don't come on here and complain when you are getting the fruits of your labor. Just saying. 😀

 

[Reed Richards]

I am starting to think, as in most of life, one's external circumstances have far less to do with how a person/group acts than do the internal composition of said person or group. Its internal.

Please don't make me go to "that place" where I have to consider the internal composition of my said group. I have blocked it from my mind so as not to throw me into a rant that even here would be out of place. I prefer to continue my own logic, and how dare you present me with any actual facts! 🙂 RR

 

[Phoenix]

... Labor groups also vote and are very concerned with preserving jobs. ....

Tell me about it. In a New York minute, just to keep their job, the top 51% of any labor group would vote themselves a 40% pay cut and allow the bottom 49% to be furloughed. Profit instructions to management.... Wash, Rinse, Repeat, and Repeat Again.

 

[Piedmont1984]

1984, the existence of transcripts from depositions from both sides over the last two weeks is FACT, not alleged. The issue is would the West Class, and even an apparently disgruntled (but well intentioned) East Class pilot come on a public forum and discuss the content of said depositions? Really? But then again, it was a "leaked" deposition transcript that did Paula Dean in. RR

Correction, you used the words 'depo analysis without proof'. That is what I meant.

BTW, can you recommend a more secure forum where we can discuss this (intentionally beating dead horse) ? 🙂

 

[Piedmont1984]

Tell me about it. In a New York minute, just to keep their job, the top 51% of any labor group would vote themselves a 40% pay cut and allow the bottom 49% to be furloughed. Profit instructions to management.... Wash, Rinse, Repeat, and Repeat Again.

I guess you could say it's a DOH kinda thing 🙂

 

[Phoenix]

I guess you could say it's a DOH kinda thing 🙂

Sure, its a privilege of DOH. That's why LOA 93 is such a good deal.... Its a job with DOH, and to he.ll with the other junior guys or senior guys. True to form for any labor group that votes.... Why is anyone surprised. Its the 51% principle worked in backwards. The 51% of "junior pilots" want their job more than a pay raise for the senior guys like Trader.

 

[Beancounter]

I really don't get the argument of false choice. Why do people fall for it.

Management has been acting like a slime bag for over a decade toward us, but negotiates three labor contracts with AMR employees in a matter of weeks, and even agrees to pay taxes for the $100K stake that the APA pilots get. I don't know what the he.l.l the APA had when it went into negotiations, but if anyone figures it out lets get some of that sh.i.t instead of fighting about choosing between having LOA93 or the MOU as a starting point.

The APA was/is in bankruptcy for crying out load, how much weaker a position can one hold? I am starting to think, as in most of life, one's external circumstances have far less to do with how a person/group acts than do the internal composition of said person or group. Its internal. The MOU LOA 93 stuff don't mean shiite to negotiations. IMHO. 🙂

It actually quite simple, it's called, "leverage." Numerous business news sources and Parker himself have said that he learned a lesson from the failed Delta/US merger. He learned that he needed the acquired airlines workforce onboard with the merger. That is the leverage they had, he needed their support. USAPA has no leverage and they've done it to themselves. Not only did they alienate the entire west pilot group they literally handed any leverage left over to the company! By pursuing DOH USAPA gave the company leverage. The only reason this group even got the MOU is because, while Parker didn't need the US pilots on board, he wanted it. It wasn't a lot of leverage, but it was something, which is more than we'll have if this merger fails.

Bean

 

[Phoenix]

It actually quite simple, it's called, "leverage." Numerous business news sources and Parker himself have said that he learned a lesson from the failed Delta/US merger. He learned that he needed the acquired airlines workforce onboard with the merger. That is the leverage they had, he needed their support. USAPA has no leverage and they've done it to themselves. Not only did they alienate the entire west pilot group they literally handed any leverage left over to the company! By pursuing DOH USAPA gave the company leverage. The only reason this group even got the MOU is because, while Parker didn't need the US pilots on board, he wanted it. It wasn't a lot of leverage, but it was something, which is more than we'll have if this merger fails.

Bean

Yes... Leverage. Even a cave man knows leverage is built via majority. (That's the internal fortitude of said group 🙂 ) The minority bitching about having no leverage is like a homeless nutjub complaining about walking from Phoenix to Tucson after he refused to get on a free air conditioned train because it was traveling to LAX.

The minority is the minority is the minority. By definition they lack leverage. They didn't get on the train and now they want to complain about it.

P.S. You missed to the whole point. RR proposed that we are better off in our next negotiation because we have the MOU instead of LOA93. Bull shiite. The company gave us both those POS sandwiches and we are fighting over which one is better while the APA has a banquet during bankruptcy....? WTF OVER. Why the heal are folks arguing, fighting, litigating, bitching, and character assassinating. The company is the one sucker punching the mob, like kids that tie two cats together by the tails and set off a bunch of fire crackers under them.

Enjoy the walk to Tucson. 🙂

 

[Beancounter]

Yes... Leverage. Even a cave man knows leverage is built via majority. (That's the internal fortitude of said group 🙂 ) The minority bitching about having no leverage is like a homeless nutjub complaining about walking from Phoenix to Tucson after he refused to get on a free air conditioned train because it was traveling to LAX.

The minority is the minority is the minority. By definition they lack leverage. They didn't get on the train and now they want to complain about it.

P.S. You missed to the whole point. RR proposed that we are better off in our next negotiation because we have the MOU instead of LOA93. Bull shiite. The company gave us both those POS sandwiches and we are fighting over which one is better while the APA has a banquet during bankruptcy....? WTF OVER. Why the heal are folks arguing, fighting, litigating, bitching, and character assassinating. The company is the one sucker punching the mob, like kids that tie two cats together by the tails and set off a bunch of fire crackers under them.

Enjoy the walk to Tucson. 🙂

I've got news for you, we're on the same train and it's going the wrong way.

Minority? Leverage? So you're saying the people that want to have a decent contract here are in the minority? lmao. That sure does explain a lot.

Don't complain about the quality of the MOU when you support a plan that divides us and hands the leverage over to the company. You can say that you acknowledge there importance to contact negotiations, but your actions say otherwise.

Bean

 

[EastUS1]

I've got news for you, we're on the same train and it's going the wrong way.

Minority? Leverage? So you're saying the people that want to have a decent contract here are in the minority? lmao. That sure does explain a lot.

Don't complain about the quality of the MOU when you support a plan that divides us and hands the leverage over to the company. You can say that you acknowledge there importance to contact negotiations, but your actions say otherwise.

Bean

"... when you support a plan that divides us and hands the leverage over to the company..."...? = Possible First prize for the Joke of the Day honors.

Check out cactusboy's posting history for a fine example of a worthless-suck-up-"campany man", add to that your illustrious Johnny M's expressed-on-camera desires to "turn in" east pilots, the wholesale and astoundingly stupid glee often expressed about the universal injunction, the west's unbelievable idiocy over the "fuel school" business, and then explain to me exactly what possible, or even remotely conceivable use your bunch would ever be in any negotiations scenario...?

If there's any possible value to even be imagined in seeking supposed "unity" with your group....well...you've kept it very well hidden. Several years ago; I'd already realized that the US contingent had sadly been tied to a boat anchor, where labor negotiations of any kind were concerned.

GO "spartans!" 😉 And yes; we all know that we "can live on LOA93 forever!" as well, just so long as you're all thrilled out there with the second worst compensation...which many west posters have even bragged about, amazingly enough. That again serves to demonstrate how useful the west would be, nic or no nic. Even were I drowning; I'd certainly not seek solace in frantically striving for "unity" with an anchor.

 

[Beancounter]

"... when you support a plan that divides us and hands the leverage over to the company..."...? = Possible First prize for the Joke of the Day honors.

Check out cactusboy's posting history for a fine example of a worthless-suck-up-"campany man", add to that your illustrious Johnny M's expressed-on-camera desires to "turn in" east pilots, the wholesale and astoundingly stupid glee often expressed about the universal injunction, the west's unbelievable idiocy over the "fuel school" business, and then explain to me exactly what possible, or even remotely conceivable use your bunch would ever be in any negotiations scenario...?

If there's any possible value to even be imagined in seeking supposed "unity" with your group....well...you've kept it very well hidden. Several years ago; I'd already realized that the US contingent had sadly been tied to a boat anchor, where labor negotiations of any kind were concerned.

GO "spartans!" 😉 And yes; we all know that we "can live on LOA93 forever!" as well, just so long as you're all thrilled out there with the second worst compensation...which many west posters have even bragged about, amazingly enough. That again serves to demonstrate how useful the west would be, nic or no nic. Even were I drowning; I'd certainly not seek solace in frantically striving for "unity" with an anchor.

Well, all i can say to that is, it's a good thing you're prepared to live on loa93 forever. I'd like to see you guys off it, but what can i say, i'm in the minority.

Bean

 

[Phoenix]

I've got news for you, we're on the same train and it's going the wrong way.

Minority? Leverage? So you're saying the people that want to have a decent contract here are in the minority? ...

The wrong way....

The West is the one that has spent millions in court complaining that the majority is going the wrong way. The West has opposed pay parity for nearly a decade, and has given the company all the division they need to ignore all the pilots. Everyone would like a new, better contract, but the minority keeps threatening the company that they will sue everyone and their brother if the majority gets their way.

Its a free country and I don't blame you guys for suing and fighting for what you think is right, but if you are gonna choose to side with the obvious minority (with all the commensurate difficulties and troubles) then I think it is funny when the minority complains to the majority and tries to get everyone to walk to Tucson so we can have leverage.

 

[Phoenix]

Well, all i can say to that is, it's a good thing you're prepared to live on loa93 forever. I'd like to see you guys off it, but what can i say, i'm in the minority.

Bean

I think this is where Reed Richards can once again point out that his predictions were true..... In the absence of getting the Nic, the West swings to drama about how bad LOA 93 (on DOH) is compared to the wonderful panacea of the Kirby with the Nic.

 

[EastUS1]

Well, all i can say to that is, it's a good thing you're prepared to live on loa93 forever. I'd like to see you guys off it, but what can i say, i'm in the minority.

Bean

OK then. Let's venture deep into Fantasyland for a moment and say you've gotten your nic handed to you. What possible use would your group ever be (which in my estimation would be less than zero) in getting any substantial contract improvements, and how would you attempt to do so, perhaps by issuing yet more management-worshipping-knee-pads out to all the mighty "spartans"?...Or publicly asking of top management if you can "turn in" other pilots?...Perhaps having even more west posters enthusiastically proclaiming that they'd cross picket lines at the frist chance they're given? 😉 What would magically and instantly change within the well-demonstrated "moral" fiber of your group so's to make any "unified" opposition to management's wishes even possible?