Charlotte To Get Munich Flight

Pacemaker

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Sep 3, 2002
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In the isolated context of LH brining in pax to ride on US Airways I agree it's a benefit; in the larger scheme of things It's one more example of outsourcing. One can envision that eventually you could have Star Alliance carriers, United, and US Airways Express all feeding Mid Atlantic EMB's, this wonderful activity all taking place while we mainline "glass half empty" folks sit at home on unemployment.
 

AOG-N-IT

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Pacemaker said:
In the isolated context of LH brining in pax to ride on US Airways I agree it's a benefit; in the larger scheme of things It's one more example of outsourcing. One can envision that eventually you could have Star Alliance carriers, United, and US Airways Express all feeding Mid Atlantic EMB's, this wonderful activity all taking place while we mainline "glass half empty" folks sit at home on unemployment.
Until we take delivery of more Long Range wide body Acft...what options do we have?

Take the immediate benefits....and work toward a long term benefit when the tools are on the property.

If U will work LH for the rights to work these flights?....it just may put a few more folks back to work?...We can only hope , right?
 

Ukridge

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Aug 27, 2002
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Excuse the foray onto your boards but as a customer who has flys both United and Lufthansa I concur with the skepticism that this announcement meets. The questions to be asked of course are “wheretoâ€￾ and “whenceâ€￾ as it pertains to Lufthansa’s continuing traffic. Pulling out the atlas and perusing the geography of the former colonies I notice that Lufthansa from Frankfurt and Munich pretty well blankets the United States. Miami, Atlanta, Washington, Philadelphia, New York (Newark and JFK), Boston, Detroit, Chicago, Denver (I thought that United used to fly in and out of this city?), San Francisco and Los Angeles both merit multiple flights throughout the seasons, Phoenix, Portland, Vancouver and others every day (Seattle next?). If I as a passenger fly with Lufthansa and plan to carry on to another city, the furthest I will have to go is just a few hundred kilometers at most. Why? Simply because I would fly on to another large city and then have the pleasant experience of flying in a peasant jet to reach the backwaters.

To think that I would fly to Charlotte and onward is simply a mistake. Notice United as an example. By American standards they may consider themselves having a large presence in Frankfurt. Two a day to Chicago and Washington and one to SFO if I am reading the literature correctly. They pulled out of Dusseldorf and launch the small wide-body 767 out of Munich whilst Lufthansa sallies forth with a veritable armada from this Bavarian city. United’s capacity is miniscule compared to LH’s and I am sure it could be further reduced when and if LH so dictates.

Make no mistake of who is in charge here. The US carrier shell off flying to Lufthansa as does a hibernating animal does its skin after a long winter. The fact that Lufthansa takes over a United gateway and then moves in larger aircraft is symptomatic that the U.S. carriers are mere handmaidens to the real royalty. Sorry to say, but most Germans going to Charlotte will probably not be going very much further.
Cheers anyways
 

Capecod

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"U.S. carriers are mere handmaidens to the real royalty."

I take back everything I said. If pricks like this guy work or use LH then U shouldn't want or need there passengers. What an arrogant cocky statement!! U would be better off in Ch 7 then helping this guy. -Cape
 

iflyjetz

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Oct 2, 2002
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Capecod said:
"U.S. carriers are mere handmaidens to the real royalty."

I take back everything I said. If pricks like this guy work or use LH then U shouldn't want or need there passengers. What an arrogant cocky statement!! U would be better off in Ch 7 then helping this guy. -Cape
Cape, I suggest that you have someone with a triple digit intelligence quotient interpret that statement for you.
 

tadjr

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Ukridge said:
To think that I would fly to Charlotte and onward is simply a mistake.
So all those Germans coming to Florida simply fly to Miami and then drive the 4 or 5 hours to get to Disney or the beaches? Or they fly to Atlanta and then drive the 8 hours to MSY? Why would they do that when they now have the option of flying LH from MUC to CLT and then connecting to MCO/RSW/TPA/MSY on a LH* flight? I guess this is the same reason that many days during the summer we have 50-75 people on our international bank flights connecting to European cities via PHL? I dont understand your reasoning. What am I missing?
 

Ukridge

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All right, rather late for me, but I will explain what the expression “U.S. carriers are the handmaidens of the real royalty†means. I must admit however, that after having suffered the sharp invective of the monosyllabic appellation “prick†by someone of obvious low breeding that I almost pine for the days of Chip labeling me a ‘sophist†and the innocent enjoyment of his misuse of the word ‘sanguine.’ As I have explained many times on the United board I work within a firm that makes extensive use of the Star Alliance carriers United and Lufthansa. Frankfurt, London, and Washington are a sort of triangle for us and the Star offers unparalleled flexibility in maneuvering among these cities. There are other groups within the firm that travel extensively to other Star cities both on the continent and in the U.S and occasionally Asia. This unique offering is what has steered us away from British Airways.

I have never been disappointed in United and have been a strong supporter of their return to viability as a pre-eminent carrier. I have yet to be presented though with incontrovertible evidence that Lufthansa is not in the driver’s seat with respect to the Star’s plans. How many flights does United have to Frankfurt and from where? How many flights in turn does Lufthansa have to these “United†cities? United flies to Frankfurt from San Francisco. LH sometimes flies two flights a day to this city. It appears that LH matches each United flight with its own. Then of course comes the avalanche of other cites in the U.S. and North America that Lufthansa serves. Make the count. Report as to who does the bulk of the flying.

A United staff member posed the following example to me. LH used to fly a passenger to LAX where a connection could be made on a United jet to Phoenix. Then United downgraded to a small jet (which I believe you call a regional jet). After a while LH skipped the middleman and flew directly to Phoenix completely bypassing LAX. Now where is the benefit to United? Where is the benefit to United when LH serves Portland and possibly Seattle? Denver with United? No, that is the reserve of a LH 747. You forward the example of the Florida beaches and MSY (where is that?), and Philadelphia. Yes indeed I am sure there are passengers in Philadelphia. With multiple flights from Newark and Washington however, LH has a nice bit of coverage near your population centers that the U.S. carriers simply do not enjoy in Europe.

Yes, call me wrong. Perhaps I am wide of the mark. I however, would be concerned about the encroachment of Lufthansa. Merely look to the West Coast of your large nation and witness the flying that they do instead of United and convince me (for your sake not mine) that LH savoring the best fruit is not a troublesome trend for your colleagues. As a passanger I enjoy the benefits of the Star but that is not what this thread questions. Frankly it is not for me to have to live with the consequences. Calling me a “prick†is merely symptomatic of an inchoate intelligence grappling with trying to express thoughts that require a keener thought process. You propose that it would be better that your liquidate your firm liquidate rather than have me on board. Interesting proposition that I assume will not be met with enthusiasm among your colleagues.

Now. United can stand on its own right and doff its cap to no man. With LH taking so much of the flying though, the expression “handmaiden†very well may be fitting in this case as it applies only to whom is taking and doing the flying and not anything else.
 

tadjr

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Once again, we dont currently have the wide body equipment to start the CLT-MUC flight ourselves (and I believe no new widebodies for over another year or two) so to get ANY incremental revenue from this new flight will be something that we didnt plan on having or getting otherwise right now.
There is a vast region of the US outside of the LH "hotspots" that require a connection somewhere to get to Europe. US is currently able to offer convenient one change flights to MUC from many of these cities, but there are an even bigger number of cities where we dont currently offer this and the alternative is probably on DL.
You have the entire Southeast and Southern US that will now have the option of flying US/LH to MUC (and beyond) that currently dont have that option unless they want to change planes a couple of times. I understand your concern for US metal leaving for LH, and LH will probably build up service and open new routes if its viable for them, but with US not having any plans for big planes anytime soon, I feel that at this juncture that is a moot point.

MSY- New Orleans, Louisiana
 

Ukridge

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Fair enough Tadjr. I appreciate the reasoned explanation. I must be careful wading into these boards as I claim no expertise other than attempting to be an informed observer. Not that I "chat up" the staff, but perhaps my opinon on this has been influenced by many United staff members who passionately distrust the inroads that LH has made on their flying and have offered to me the aforementioed scenarios of a LH on the march. No Denver flight seems to be of particular discomfort. As I listen to their reasoning I as well would be extremely concerned. Your explanation however, does lead one to believe that advantage may accrue to Airways if enough passangers are carried beyond.
Cheers
 

ITRADE

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Ukridge said:
Fair enough Tadjr. I appreciate the reasoned explanation. I must be careful wading into these boards as I claim no expertise other than attempting to be an informed observer. Not that I "chat up" the staff, but perhaps my opinon on this has been influenced by many United staff members who passionately distrust the inroads that LH has made on their flying and have offered to me the aforementioed scenarios of a LH on the march. No Denver flight seems to be of particular discomfort. As I listen to their reasoning I as well would be extremely concerned. Your explanation however, does lead one to believe that advantage may accrue to Airways if enough passangers are carried beyond.
Cheers
You've got to remember that DEN is basically a continental, east-west hub. While it does not have service to FRA/MUC - a star alliance gateway - it also does not have service to NRT - a UA hub. Clearly, UA has made the clear, conscious decision to do the big international flying from hub #1 (Chicago) and the coastal hubs (SFO, LAX, and IAD).

Listen, there is no question that LH flies to a lot of cities in the U.S. However, UA (and US) fly to lots of cities in Europe - which should be considered one geographic block for this analysis. ORD and PHL have numerous European flights to any number of cities that certainly won't be losing service any time soon.
 

a320av8r

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Deutsche Lufthansa AG

News release 12/10/03 14:51:35 GMT

Lufthansa flies to business centres of Charlotte and Guangzhou

(PRESSI.COM 12/10/03) Customers profit from the further growth from Terminal 2 in Munich

As of its summer timetable 2004, Lufthansa will substantially increase its offer of flights for customers from its Munich hub. It has already been decided that, as of 26th March, the airline will provide a daily service from Munich to Charlotte. As early as 1st February, Guangzhou will be on Munich's flight plan with a flight continuing from Shanghai five times a week. As of 28th March, this connection will then be extended to a daily service. Charlotte, the metropolis in the American South, will simultaneously be a special event for Lufthansa: 'The fact that for the second time a new long-haul destination is served not from Frankfurt but rather from Munich, is an indication that Terminal 2 is continuing its success story as Lufthansa's second hub', says Ralf Teckentrup, Lufthansa Executive Vice-President Network Management, IT and Purchasing.

The new connection with Charlotte opens up a dense network of connections in the USA for customers. As the hub of Lufthansa's partner US Airways, in particular, Charlotte is a springboard to the Southeast of the USA: Passengers can conveniently and quickly reach a further 15 destinations with code-sharing flights from here. With a population of 500,000, Charlotte is the largest city in the federal state of North Carolina and for years has been regarded as the 'boom town' in the South of the USA. The 'Bank of America', the USA's largest bank, has its headquarters in Charlotte, thus making the Southern state metropolis the second-largest financial centre in the United States. 168 German companies have settled in the region around Charlotte, including large companies in the textile industry, metal processing and the electronics industry.

The region also has much to offer holidaymakers. The federal state of North Carolina is located on the East coast of the United States halfway between New York and Florida. In geographical and historic terms, the state belongs to American Southern states whose colonial charm is still to be seen in many towns in North Carolina.

In addition to 1,300 restaurants, first-class cultural facilities and a lively scene, North Carolina fascinates its visitors with its diverse natural recreational attractions. Richly contrasting landscapes and breathtaking national parks invite visitors to undertake trekking and rafting tours, anglers and water sportsmen will get their money's worth on the rivers and lakes. In addition, the Atlantic coast with its beach resorts and offshore islands is within easy reach. With its many spectacular championship courses, North Carolina is regarded as an Eldorado for golfers from all over the world.

The Airbus A340-300 to Charlotte takes off daily at 11.10 hrs., the return flight arrives in Munich at 8.00 hrs. In the forthcoming summer timetable, from its second hub Lufthansa will be flying to eight cities in North America and will thus depart 55 times a week to the American continent. :up:
 

RowUnderDCA

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Oct 6, 2002
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A320-

You beat me to posting that amusing article. Sounds like a promotional brochure from the NC Tourism Agency translated into German and then translated back into English.

Considering the exchange rate of the Euro, I'd expect to hear more German in Asheville and other charming southern colonial towns!

I know that everytime I go to 'FurnitureLand South' in High Point NC, I hear German. But they could rent a car and drive from CLT.
 

AOG-N-IT

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RowUnderDCA said:
A320-

You beat me to posting that amusing article. Sounds like a promotional brochure from the NC Tourism Agency translated into German and then translated back into English.

Considering the exchange rate of the Euro, I'd expect to hear more German in Asheville and other charming southern colonial towns!

I know that everytime I go to 'FurnitureLand South' in High Point NC, I hear German. But they could rent a car and drive from CLT.
They would in fact be forced to rent a car..or take a bus to the furniture marts in Hickory, N.C. or Highpoint.

The Mesa takeover of CCAir (dba) USAirways Express , in fact killed off the flights between CLT and HKY...along with the route to INT that CC vacated before Ken Gann retired as CC's CEO.

CC brought some of their troubles upon themselves in this regard ...but the final nail in the proverbial coffin was the MESA takeover.

HKY is slated to pick up regional flying again...but the carrier will not be U or any of it's Express affiliates this time around.

I suspect in the not so distant future...SOP (Southern Pines / Pinehurst ) will find another carrier to fill the void created to the Mid-South Golf resort too. Moore County N.C. was less than pleased by CCAir's departure. This was in fact one of the first cities served by Piedmont since the late 1940's

Moore County built a nice terminal for USAir Express...and I suspect they would like to see a return on their investment money ...not to mention the added resort filling benefits that would be provided in kind.

FYI ..for an Express Operation to make money in and out of SOP , here's a free clue for Ya , 19 Passenger planes into a Golf Resort is not the answer...PAWOBS will eat up your profits before you can say Arnold Palmer.
 

Justaramper

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Dec 15, 2002
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Many ways to look at this situation....Not alot of local traffic to MUC via CLT, so many will be connecting from other USAirways flights to CLT. There is money to be made by this process...Who is going to provide the Ramp Service...? USAirways has all the equipment that is needed to work this flight, why should the sub-contact to anyone else..? They did in the past, but the situation has changed with a code-share agreement...

This may end up to be a good thing...?
 

Ukridge

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Itrade thus spake: "Listen, there is no question that LH flies to a lot of cities in the U.S. However, UA (and US) fly to lots of cities in Europe - which should be considered one geographic block for this analysis. ORD and PHL have numerous European flights to any number of cities that certainly won't be losing service any time soon. "

Yes. Measured as a pure volume of flight of US carriers to Germany and LH flights to the U.S. then the number is probably equal. I perhaps misread the sentiment of some of the posters in this thread. I thought that I had noticed a certain level of concern among the staff of Airways in re LH. If I were in the employ of a U.S. airline, it would matter to my carrier only if we were either gaining the revenue from LH or doing the flying ourselves. What the other carriers do would have little or no bearing on me unless I held their stock in my portfolio. As in the example of LH to Phoenix however, I can understand the concern that an employee would have when looking in the maul of this armada. Just perhaps the LH to Charlotte flight will spawn flights a -plenty for Airways. Perhaps not. Concern though in the airline environment of today is however, certainly not a misplaced sentiment. Many United employees have given voice to it as LH bypasses their hubs.
Cheers