City of Dallas still in talks with Delta about Love Field

[WorldTraveler]

B6 doesn't do well in Texas for the same reason that AS or VX don't... they are coastal airlines that are built around demand that either goes up and down the coasts or overflies much of the rest of the US.

a merger of any of the 3 you mention won't change that the legacy carriers and WN all built strong mid-continent hubs that the "little 3" will never be able to duplicate.

and the rest of your post is nothing but a HOPE,and it is merely that, that AA can get the gates back and succeed at screwing DL out of the ability to serve DAL.

what is far more likely to happen is that, in the event that DL is unable to serve DAL, it will pursue legal action against the 5 parties, DAL, and WN. you are quick to point out how the DOJ and DOT all put their blessing on the 5 party agreement but you don't seem to want to admit that they have specifically told DAL that the gov't's position is that DL should be accommodated and simply loading up the gates now does not work to remove the obligation that DAL had at the time DL requested access to DAL months before WN ever published its schedule.

as much as you want to think that DL is the carrier that should pay, if you demonstrated a modicum of intelligence you would recognize that AA would be well-advised to support DL's efforts to push into DAL and in the process limit WN's ability to grow and do the damage to AA's DFW hub which I said they would do.

since you can't admit that I was right about the impact that WN would have on AA at DFW, then it is certainly to be expected that you won't admit that the best course of action is for AA to use every mechanism possible to slow WN down at DAL, including pushing with DL for WN to be forced to accommodate every cat and dog airline that wants to serve DAL since a million cat and dog airlines together can't do the damage to AA than WN has done.

 

[swamt]

Looks like the COD will not step in, for now, as Delta has requested them to.  Waiting for clarification if request or an order.  If an order, then the COD may not have to step in, if a request or suggestion, then they may or still may not, who knows.  First Delta and now the COD will stay out until a clarification is ruled on...
 
Dallas is waiting and watching on Love Field spat

 

[WorldTraveler]

all this news shows it that DAL is trying to sidestep its responsibility to enforce airport access laws.

what DAL's actions don't do is absolve DAL of responsibility to follow DOT airport access requirements and they know that by their statement that they are waiting for further clarification.

from the article-

“The city will move slowly to ensure we don’t jeopardize past or future grants from the FAA [Federal Aviation Administration] by not following Department of Transportation guidance,” Duebner said.

Duebner said the city is still waiting for further word from DOT General Counsel Kathryn Thomson’s office clarifying whether her Dec. 17 letter was a suggestion or an order. If it’s the latter, then the city will likely tell Southwest that Delta gets to stay at the 20-gate airport past July 6.

---

If DAL doesn't think the DOT's letter from Dec 2014 is sufficient and act accordingly, then having the case end u pin federal court is the likely outcome.

and any outcome is likely to show that WN does not have any legal protection against US antitrust laws for operating 90% of the gates and over 95% of the seats at DAL. An antitrust judge will tear up WN's sublease of the 2 UA gates in a minute.

DL is following the slow, deliberate path to expanded DAL access that was clear over a year ago when DL requested access and proposed its expanded DAL flight schedule.

since that time, WN has played the bully, forced UA out of the market and convinced UA to transfer the leases to WN, and WN is now making it highly unlikely that VX will survive.

If the case goes to court, it is very likely based on antitrust laws that WN's gate usage at DAL will eventually be capped at 16 gates and WN will be forced to fit as many flights into those gates and anyone else that wants to serve DAL will have access to the rest of the gates. Given that WN has driven off UA, AA is banned from serving DAL as part of the merger agreement, and VX is clearly doing poorly, DL might be the carrier that gets to operate from the remaining gates at DAL.

 

[700UW]

DAL is covered by its own unique law, that has been passed by Congress, signed by the President, and approved by the DOT and DOJ.
 
So explain how they are in violation of any law, when you know the Wright Amendment and its subsequent revisions, do not require access to a carrier if there are no gates available.

 

[swamt]

700, You are correct. Some people just don't understand or comprehend how the laws, W/A agreement, and the involvement of the COD, DOT and DOJ works at DAL Love Field.  There is not one single airport in the world that operates around all the rules and regs like DAL Love Field does...

 

[WorldTraveler]

no, 700 is only PARTIALLY correct.

WN's activities at DAL are protected from antitrust law only to the 16 gates which it occupied at on the date of the 5 party agreement.

WN is trying to bully its way into eliminating all competitors and gain access to all of the gates at DAL.

THE DOJ and DOT both noted as part of the UA gate lease reassignment that approval was conditioned on DL's continued sublease of the gate it operated from.

There is a solid basis for antitrust enforcement against DAL and WN if DL is not given access to the gates it currently operates from and if WN gains access to any other space above the 16 gares - including the UA gates - while other carriers including DL wish to serve DAL.

neither DAL or WN are exempt from US antitrust and airport access laws.

DAL specifically noted that it will not violate federal laws because doing so will result in loss of FAA money for the airport.

 

[robbedagain]

wrong  wrong  wrong   you are the one who is truly wrong   700 is correct   swamt is correct  LEARN TO GRASP things  Congress developed the laws for DAL and they have to live with it til theyre ready  (and I mean actually ready) to rework it. 

 

[WorldTraveler]

if the Lord said He was coming back today and I happened to be the one that you heard it from, you would deny it just because it came from me.

The DOT and DOJ specifically said their approval of WN's acquisition of the two additional gates from UA was dependent on WN honoring the DL sublease and accommodating DL not just until July but on a long-term basis.

Congress did not provide any protection for WN above 16 gates at DAL.

y'all just will look more dumb when DL is still there and WN is forced to give up part of the gates it spent money to acquire so that DL can continue to serve DAL.

 

[swamt]

How long does it take to get this thing settled?  Like I have suggested before, I think it's time to rethink the cap on flights.  It has already been proven that the flights are needed.  What would it hurt to throw 12 more gates in at Love Field and invite any airline in that wants in.  It shouldn't be much longer, but I guess we actually have until July 6th...
 
 
Dallas is waiting and watching on Love Field spat

 

[WorldTraveler]

What is likely means is that WN knows it isn't going to win so will not settle.

and as I noted before, there are a lot of people that would support the expansion of DAL.... you just have to convince the people in Dallas first, then make sure that AA gets to come back since it is clear WN doesn't need any protection.

and finally, DL won't agree to anything and will push the issue unless it can expand to its original two gate schedule.

and for perspective, DL has about 19 flights/day at MDW, four gates, and is the only legacy carrier there.

It isn't unreasonable to think that DL could make the original 20-24 flights/day that DL asked for at DAL work with just 2 gates.

and it is also possible that WN knows that VX will flame out and DL can be pushed into those two gates and WN can not have to worry about the sublease to DL or any potential of AA coming back.

 

[WNMECH]

How long does it take to get this thing settled?  Like I have suggested before, I think it's time to rethink the cap on flights.  It has already been proven that the flights are needed.  What would it hurt to throw 12 more gates in at Love Field and invite any airline in that wants in.  It shouldn't be much longer, but I guess we actually have until July 6th...
 
 
Dallas is waiting and watching on Love Field spat

This is why we wont see more gates. The NIMBY's keep talking about it.

http://letterstotheeditorblog.dallasnews.com/2015/04/love-field-noise-is-intolerable.html/

The same Federal law that we are using to protect our contract rights at Love Field, limits it to 20 gates and protects Love Field area residents. You cant just ignore part of the law.

Also, we really only need this settled before Aug 9th not Jul 6th.

“We announced in late February several additional flights for Love Field which will begin on Aug. 9,” Hawkins said. “This increase will bring our total Love Field operation to 180 flights a day to 50 cities. This schedule requires the full utilization of all 18 of our leased gates at Love Field. Delta’s temporary arrangement on one of those gates will end July 6.”

 

[WorldTraveler]

WN could squeeze its flights into its existing gates if it wanted to. They want to dominate the airport and kick out the competitors.

but the chances are slim to none that WN will succeed at doing that.

WN has no legal protection from antitrust laws for operating above 16 gates.

Given that it is highly likely that DL would pursue an antitrust case against WN and DAL if DL is pushed out, WN's best course of action is to continue to keep DL at DAL and as small as possible and then when VX fails, and they will, not fight when DL fights to get the other two gates which is what they should have been allowed to do in the first place and if the DOJ had not interfered with the marketplace.

it is clear that WN has more than enough size to be a very effective competitor to AA and DL has the best case for being at both DAL given that DL has demonstrated an ability to succeed in the marketplace against WN and also has the smallest presence of the big 4 in Texas.

 

[eolesen]

How long does it take to get this thing settled?  Like I have suggested before, I think it's time to rethink the cap on flights.  It has already been proven that the flights are needed.  What would it hurt to throw 12 more gates in at Love Field and invite any airline in that wants in.  It shouldn't be much longer, but I guess we actually have until July 6th...

I really wouldn't expect anything to happen in court until 60 days out from DL's eviction date. There's no sense of urgency.

It's ludicrous that you think it's time to revisit the cap just six months into the post-Wright rules. That's like running out and buying a new car because the rugs got dirty after a month.

What would it take to add 12 more gates? Money, agreement from DFW and Fort Worth, plus an Act of Congress.

I don't see any of those happening, so I think y'all will have to make do with the current agreement a little while longer.

 

[WorldTraveler]

I really wouldn't expect anything to happen in court until 60 days out from DL's eviction date. There's no sense of urgency.

It's ludicrous that you think it's time to revisit the cap just six months into the post-Wright rules. That's like running out and buying a new car because the rugs got dirty after a month.

What would it take to add 12 more gates? Money, agreement from DFW and Fort Worth, plus an Act of Congress.

I don't see any of those happening, so I think y'all will have to make do with the current agreement a little while longer.

there is no reason why expanding DAL couldn't happen as much as you want to believe otherwise.

But it really isn't necessary.

WN can easily run 160 flights/day with just 16 gates. If they succeed at getting 18 full gates - which will happen ONLY if DL is accommodated in the gates that VX occupies, then WN could come close to 190 flights/day.

They have very few cities that have more flights/day than that and even at MDW, more than 40% of the passengers are connecting passengers.

WN can easily meet the local demand with 180 flights/day. AA doesn't carry the entire local domestic demand for the markets AA serves from DFW on the amount of capacity that WN offers with even 160 737-800 sized flights.

WN WANTS more gates - but they don't need it to easily take more than half of the local domestic market.

and they don't stand a chance of getting it unless other carriers gain a disproportionate amount of space such that WN's stranglehold on DAL is reduced.

 

[FrugalFlyerv2.0]

AA doesn't carry the entire local domestic demand for the markets AA serves from DFW on the amount of capacity that WN offers with even 160 737-800 sized flights.

I apologize in advance if I'm mistaken, but I believe that you have parroted something like this before and were proven to be incorrect. (I can't recall if it was here or the DL or AA boards and whether it was FWAA or eolesen that corrected you).