Company Tips Its Hand

[Rico]

No, they have become "careers" because they have provided decent enough wages and benifits to entice ramp agents to remain. But that is not the case with our competition, who either pays unskilled labor wages, or contracts it out to a outside company who also pays unskilled labor wages.

This is not unknown at US, I know SAV has Signature handling ground operations, and trust me that those employees are paid a lot less than Mainline ramp agents. Obviously, US Express agents are another example of in-house employees, that make far less than theri mainline counterparts. Most Signature and Express agents would not consider their jobs to be "a career", and they tend as a result to be young, or part-time workers.

IMHO the actual wave of the future, is that it will not be in the airlines hands anymore at all. A more "european" model in which the Airport Administration handles the ground operations instead. This is already done in HPN, where all airlines MUST use the Westchester Airport's services. But, this also negates the differences between carriers, as each pays the same rate for the same work.

Who knows, all that is known is we pay a lot more for the same work than what our LCC competition does. No insult meant, it is just the fact of the matter.

 

[BoeingBoy]

I guess the problem I have is the "conventional wisdom" of some that if costs are high, it must be the employees' pay and benefits. Until you've see the dramatic effect that growth can have on unit cost, it's hard to believe the difference it can make. Having been through a period of over 20% growth per year, I've seen it.

Jim

 

[<./']>]

Could it be that the reason these types of jobs have become "careers" is because there's nowhere to move up to since we've downsized so much? At your beloved LCC's, these "unskilled" workers would have moved up to other (higher paying) jobs long ago, to be replaced by those "young kids eager for flight benefits".

Now I've heard it all. LCC rampers are just a 'stepping stone' for the Majors. Yeah, like we have guys in high school deciding which LCC to get on with so they are honed into perfection for their career at the Major of their choice. Obviuosly our polished Major airline rampers can't even pick out the Priority bags to come out first. So why do they deserve such pay?

 

[diogenes]

I've seen what young help can do, at other carriers and at U.

They don't have a clue when an item exceeds floor bearing weight, what to do about it if they do, or have the experience to see a safety report thru.

They can easily be convinced by a supervisor or pilot to "just load the bags, and not show them on the paperwork."

Deicing is more about hurrying to get out of the bucket and the nasty weather, than about giving the crew a clean airplane.

They stand around with the manager and watch when a brake fire breaks (I crack me up!)out, while an old-timer puts it out.

You get the picture.

And this is folks that have been on the job a year or so.

There needs to be a mix of the old and young, but U's business plan has flushed out the young.

And if ramp agent costs are WHY U is losing money, kindly explain why WN pays their unionized rampers $25 and makes a profit?

It's the business plan, boys and girls.

 

[700UW]

Ask the people of Miami about inexperienced rampers and underpaid, they might tell you about the Fine Air cargo plane crash.

http://aviation-safety.net/database/1997/970807-0.htm

Remarks:
The DC-8 cargo aircraft lost control after take-off from runway 27R and crashed. The plane slid west across a road (72nd Avenue) and into the International Airport Center at 28th Street and burst into flames. The aircraft had entered a 85deg. nose-up attitude after take-off, stalled and crashed. Preliminary investigation results show that, of the 49 aluminum cargo latches that were found, 48 were in an open (unlocked) position. There are a total of 90 cargo latches on the plane to hold the 16 pallets of denim it was carrying at the time.
PROBABLE CAUSE: "The National Transportation Safety Board determines that the probable cause of the accident, which resulted from the airplane being misloaded to produce a more aft center of gravity and a correspondingly incorrect stabilizer trim setting that precipitated an extreme pitch-up at rotation, was (1) the failure of Fine Air to exercise operational control over the cargo loading process; and (2) the failure of Aeromar to load the airplane as specified by Fine Air. Contributing to the accident was the failure of the FAA to adequately monitor Fine Airs operational control responsibilities for cargo loading and the failure of the FAA to ensure that known cargo-related deficiencies were corrected at Fine Air."

 

[diogenes]

Who knows, all that is known is we pay a lot more for the same work than what our LCC competition does. No insult meant, it is just the fact of the matter.

Including the CEO's, yes?

 

[diogenes]

Our competition's ramp agents are out in the same weather, throwing as many bags, but at much lower pay...

Ramp agents are a position, not a trade nor profession. No license, no extensive training nor skill with tools or heavy machinery...

Important role in our operation, but it is a job young kids eager for flight benefits will do willingly at the same low rates our competition has been able to get away with for years.

It is not an insult to the people that do the job, most found themselves in a decent paying job (for what they did to get it) and would just like to keep what they have. But US can no longer affoard to be one of the few "Career" companies for ramp agents...

Rico,

If I'm reading you correctly, cutting ramper pay will save the airline.

This flies in the face of the numbers.

U's loses far exceed ramp labor costs; that is to say, if every ramper worked for free at U, U would still have lost money.

It is typical, in stressful times, to scapegoat.

But that does not solve the problem.

 

[BoeingBoy]

<,./']>,

I didn't mean that ramp workers would move on to a higher paying airline. I meant that in a growing airline, they would have the opportunity to move up to supervisory positions, other job classifications, etc at their airline. The fact that we're about the same size as we were over a decade ago, and got here by shrinking back to this size, is what has made "slinging bags" a "career" for many.

Jim

 

[isthisok]

I bow down to you non-rampers. Careful, don't fall of of your pedestal! Are you kidding me! I have worked for this company for 32 years in all different positions
and am ending 'My Carrer' on the ramp. I am here to tell you that this company was built on the backs of the rampers, literally. Try living with a bad back, which is inevitable. You don't think rampers are worth what they are paid, I don't think corporate executives, and bus drivers are worth all they are paid. One thing I can tell you is that most of you non rampers will not end up with bad backs for the rest of your lives. This company has not run an airline for many years. They have spent the past many years trying to divide and conquer instead of running the airlines like it should have been run. They want to get the employess wages and benefits cut way back right now, but some of the non wage cost cutting measures might not be complete for another few years. What have they been doing all this time. They don't have a plan other than to cut wage and benefits.

 

[El Gato]

<,./']>,

I didn't mean that ramp workers would move on to a higher paying airline. I meant that in a growing airline, they would have the opportunity to move up to supervisory positions, other job classifications, etc at their airline. The fact that we're about the same size as we were over a decade ago, and got here by shrinking back to this size, is what has made "slinging bags" a "career" for many.

Jim

C'mon now. You actually think that any sane person would choose to be a ramper as a profession in life? It's a short term job, never meant to be worked at for years. So why does US Airways have so many long term rampers, especially in PIT? I would say that the locals are, well....let's call them cerebellum challenged. These shmoes think it is still the 1970's, and that any airline job should be a good paying one. If you want to dispute that, then ask their union first. I was a ramper once too. At age 18, I started with an outfit at JFK, and did the same work that your guys do, and with the same risks as well. You know what my pay was? $6.00/hr. I saw it as a short term job back then, and I still see it the same way. Any guy off the street can do it....so therefore it has a low pay value.

Someone before mentioned that Southwest supposedly pays their rampers $25.00/hr. Sir, you are a liar. Southwest starts at $9.00/hr right now, and it takes years....YEARS to get up into even the teens in wages. The arguement you make is false.

So once again, the question begs.....Why should a ramper, or even a flight attendant(face it, you are not going to be saving lives in the future-calls to medlink are not heroism-if a hull loss occurs you are going the same as everyone else, and serving cokes and pretzels is not "work".)? Why should a ticket agent or a res agent be paid a high salary when all they are in reality are just data entry clerks, the extra requirement for a ticket/gate agent being you have to try to smile(Never see that from the ones in PIT or PHL)?

Other airlines have cheaper employees doing the same, sometimes even better work than ours. What makes yours so "valuable"?

 

[Light Years]

Oh, El Gato! <_<

 

[700UW]

You are wrong.

Ramp starting pay is $10.18 and they reach in four years they reach $13.41 (effecitve 7/04). And in the 11th year they reach $24 and some stations are more due to cost of living.

Page 28

http://www.twu555.org/contract.html#TWENTY-EIGHT

 

[Rico]

Rico,

If I'm reading you correctly, cutting ramper pay will save the airline.

This flies in the face of the numbers.

U's loses far exceed ramp labor costs; that is to say, if every ramper worked for free at U, U would still have lost money.

It is typical, in stressful times, to scapegoat.

But that does not solve the problem.

Yeah, that is exactly what I said... Not.

I guess it is a little hard to argue the point that we should have our rampers make what the sompetition's rampers make so as to be, well competitive, so you chose to make up something indstead. Back to reality please.

No scapegoats, no flights of whimsy, just stick to the point. Our competiton pays a lot less than we do for the same work.

The only two ways to "solve" the problem is to either match our competition's costs, or outdo their productivity (or combination of both). Both are lacking in comparison. To fix it, US ground agents either have to get paid less, work more, or hopefully both.

Goint to rolling hubs, and point to point will help productivity, but much of it is a change in mentality that fewer people can do the same amount of work. This is just cold hard reality, not a vendetta. US just simply cannot afford the status quo anymore...

 

[tadjr]

OK, I'm confused here.

Which airlines exactly are our competition and are we comparing wages to today and while we're at it, can you at least compare same year pay scales when you start spouting numbers out? And before some people start the name calling they might want to brush up on their own stats they spout as well. :down:

 

[diogenes]

Someone before mentioned that Southwest supposedly pays their rampers $25.00/hr. Sir, you are a liar. Southwest starts at $9.00/hr right now, and it takes years....YEARS to get up into even the teens in wages. The arguement you make is false.

1. I never said WN starts their rampers at $25. $25 is TOS, and it takes them the same amount of years to hit TOS as U. U rampers, CSA's, and res all start at $8 and change, and it takes all of them several years to top out.

2. Name the time and place, and call me a liar to my face, sir.