Dec 2012 / Jan 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[jimntx]

If ALL pilots vote on a process of integration that fails to explicitly require the Nic, does Judge Silver's order remain intact, and is the West still bound by it? Are you sure that the old TA will have any relevance at all?

As an AA flight attendant who has been given no indication by my union that we will even be allowed to vote on any of these MOUs/agreements/etc that the union officers are approving regarding a merger of airlines and flight attendant corps, do any of you know if you will be allowed to vote on that "framework for the terms of employment for pilots, as well as a process for pilot integration, in the event of a merger between AA and US during restructuring?" Or, will this just be presented to you as the way things are going to be in the merged company?

Also, note the phrase "in the event of a merger between AA and US during restructuring." Does that mean that if the merger does not take place prior to AMR's emergence from BK then any future merger discussions start back at square 1, including integration of represented employee groups?

 

[Phoenix]

As an AA flight attendant who has been given no indication by my union that we will even be allowed to vote on any of these MOUs/agreements/etc that the union officers are approving regarding a merger of airlines and flight attendant corps, do any of you know if you will be allowed to vote on that "framework for the terms of employment for pilots, as well as a process for pilot integration, in the event of a merger between AA and US during restructuring?" Or, will this just be presented to you as the way things are going to be in the merged company?

Also, note the phrase "in the event of a merger between AA and US during restructuring." Does that mean that if the merger does not take place prior to AMR's emergence from BK then any future merger discussions start back at square 1, including integration of represented employee groups?

The APA and USAPA reps have approved a new MOU, and the pilots will have a ratification vote. I would guess that if the FA reps come to a new MOU then each FA will have to also vote on it.

The new MOU is null and void if the merger doesn't occur, so yes I think you are correct that if AA emerged stand alone then any interest in a merger would have to be revisited under new terms.

 

[jimntx]

The APA and USAPA reps have approved a new MOU, and the pilots will have a ratification vote. I would guess that if the FA reps come to a new MOU then each FA will have to also vote on it.

So, if the USAPA or APA members vote NO, then the merger is off? I can't imagine any of the UCC agreeing to pursue the merger further with the possibility of a pilot integration mess like you have been dealing with for the past 7 years.

 

[Phoenix]

So, if the USAPA or APA members vote NO, then the merger is off? I can't imagine any of the UCC agreeing to pursue the merger further with the possibility of a pilot integration mess like you have been dealing with for the past 7 years.

If any of the parties declined the current proposal there is no reason further discussions couldn't continue to explore conditions where all the parties could reach an agreement.

 

[EastUS1]

Umm...ok...I'll just suggest doing so only after knowing what it truly is that's being voted on, one way or the other.

As you've noted to another: "You're trusting a man who doesn't even know..." All should know prior to casting any votes. That's all.

Is it better to decide on what best for you (see the agreement and then vote) or be told it was bad and never have the chance?

How is it even possible for anyone to have read the above post, and yet responded as you've done? Do you just need some cheese to go with that gallon jug (at least) of fine quality Whine?

Once more: I'll just suggest casting a vote only after knowing what it truly is that's being voted on, one way or the other. All should know prior to casting any votes. That's all.

 

[prechilill]

Based on what Judge Silver said, Mr. parker has no worries.

Which is why Parker is appealing her ruling... You're an idiot Janie

 

[fifidriver]

​​

Here is your rebuttal. You are clearly the dumbest on the board. By far.


[8] Plaintiffs seek to escape this conclusion by framing
their harm as the lost opportunity to have a CBA implementing
the Nicolau Award put to a ratification vote. Because
merely putting a CBA effectuating the Nicolau Award to a
ratification vote will not itself alleviate the West Pilots furloughs,
Plaintiffs have not identified a sufficiently concrete
injury.2 Additionally, USAPA’s final proposal may yet be one
that does not work the disadvantages Plaintiffs fear, even if
that proposal is not the Nicolau Award.3

Ok, because its a Saturday, and the football games don't start for a while, and I guess because I have a morbid curiosity; Do you continue to post this quote, honestly believing that it buttresses your case, or is this merely your version of propaganda for people that you would like to sway to your point of view? Do you think that by repeating it enough times that it might eventually come to mean what you would like it to mean? Are you truly unable to deduce the intended meaning of the text as a result of an inability to comprehend thoughts larger than the contextual snippets that you highlight or are you just deliberately being obtuse?
For example, let's take the sentence fragment that you have highlighted. even if that proposal is not the Nicolau Award.3 The first clause of that statement reads; Additionally, USAPA’s final proposal may yet be one that does not work the disadvantages Plaintiffs fear, If a proposal were to be one that "does not work the disadvantages that the plaintiffs fear" what kind of proposal would that have to be? Let me answer that for you, as I understand the "plaintiffs fear" intimately. It would have to be better than the Nic. How can you possibly interpret that to mean that you have carte blanche to do whatever you want with the seniority list? It has to be the Nic or better. What other conclusion can you possibly come to? Does DOH qualify as a final proposal "that does not work the disadvantages plaintiffs fear"? Does anything that is not the Nic or better?
Not to belabor the point, but the sad fact is that we took that entire sentence out of context. We should do this again at the next level.

I'm going to go make breakfast for the kid.

BTW I'm not convinced that he is "clearly the dumbest on the board. By far."

 

[EastUS1]

Which is why Parker is appealing her ruling... You're an idiot Janie

Oh!...So today's west version of events is that he IS indeed appealing...and not just opening a "place holder" for an appeal? You'll perhaps forgive any confusion here, since it's almost impossible to just keep up with all the incessant spinning from your side. 😉

 

[Ames]

Ames leads the charge of the liars, Prechil joins in without knowing what is going on, and Cleardirect finishes up with another string of lies.

Where did I lie? I said "the meltdown begins" and obviously it did.

 

[Ames]

I'd strongly suggest that all give serious consideration as well to: "As each of us considers the MOU, we have some very good examples that have preceded us..........we have the APA pilots who refused the first offer and now haver $100K plus their retirement..."

The APA is a real union with a unified pilot group. We are neither and lucky to get the scraps.

 

[prechilill]

Oh!...So today's west version of events is that he IS indeed appealing...and not just opening a "place holder" for an appeal? You'll perhaps forgive any confusion here, since it's almost impossible to just keep up with all the incessant spinning from your side. 😉

You're forgiven

 

[Ames]

And btw. Nicalou put us in this position. Not usapa.
No one in their right mind would have accepted that aberration.
Unless they were the windfall receivers.
The us airways pilots did exactly what they had to do to protect the only thing they had left. Seniority.
This merger will put an end to the nic nonsense.

Dream on, Bubba.

 

[EastUS1]

The APA is a real union with a unified pilot group. We are neither and lucky to get the scraps.

With that expressed attitude...You apparently feel that you/we/all at what's now only laughably called USAirways, deserve nothing more than the scraps..and should simply settle for such? Well...that'll certainly make it really easy for both the company and the APA to grant your wishes...and YOU speak of meltdowns?

 

[Portly Dorman]

Thats not exactly how Judge Silver said it... for your review...


[font=times new roman']"Airline Pilots Association’s seniority proposal does not breach its duty of fair representation [font=times new roman']provided it is supported by a legitimate union purpose." [/font][/font]

Your hope is that 1) someone, anyone, anyone anywhere, will disallow USAPA to retain and use their seniority proposal, and 2) that someone, anyone, anyone anywhere will instead issue USAPA the Nic as their only seniority proposal. The LUP language is not what you want it to be. It is not a merit test before a seniority proposal is used, but rather a merit test after the fact. Who do you propose will use the LUP language before the fact, if Silver didn't? Who has the authority to do what Silver couldn't?


Also for your consideration...

"American Airlines and US Airways, with participation of committee counsel for the Unsecured Creditors Committee, are pleased that they have completed discussions with the Allied Pilots Association and US Airline Pilots Association intended to develop a framework for the terms of employment for pilots, as well as a process for pilot integration, in the event of a merger between AA and US during restructuring."​

Another question for your consideration....

If ALL pilots vote on a process of integration that fails to explicitly require the Nic, does Judge Silver's order remain intact, and is the West still bound by it? Are you sure that the old TA will have any relevance at all?

Hi Scott

Hope all is well in Prescott.

The ninth circus is my quote. Silver didn't want to touch this t8rd with a 10' pole.

Yes you can change the list, you just have to have a valid reason (LUP). Please present the valid reason and let's test the water.

You surely have heard about the ninth circus and there ruling, right?

Find the right crew meal and trade away....

 

[EastUS1]

You surely have heard about the ninth circus and there ruling, right?

A little bit yeah....Wasn't that the higher Circuit Court of Appeals that completely dismissed Wake's little "hobby" session, much to your severe distress and clearly continuing, incredulous disbelief? 😉 Oh well. It's good to know that they're merely a "circus", and to get to the real legal truths; one must only ask any given west pilot.

PS: When did the 9th deteriorate into a mere "circus", as opposed to, in the words of Mr. David Braid in yet another of the west's, momentous video productions: "A massive display of legal authority!"....? Nevermind...that was said before they ruled.