Dec 2012 / Jan 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[cleardirect]

Its probably too late for you to propose the FA merger policy, even though APA (who left ALPA decades ago) might prefer the FA policy to any suggestion to use ALPA policy.

The APA is not going to want DOH. I just don't understand why you keep thinking they will.

DOH places 85% of the east pilots in the top 50% of the list. East pilots are the majority even thought you are less than 30% of the total group. DOH places an unbroken string of over 2000 APA pilot below 85% of the east pilot. The bottom 50% of the combined list over 7000 pilots only has less than 900 east pilots.

Not a complete but almost staple of American pilots.

No way they are going to allow or accept that. Not for a day, a week a year. Argue age all you want but it makes no case.

The east's own numbers guy cried to ALPA that the Nicolau would delay some east pilot upgrade for 2 years. You east pilots were not willing to wait 2 years. What is the world makes you think that the APA pilots would be willing to wait 5 years for some of you to retire? You were not willing to do why would they? Are they better people? More honorable?

 

[prechilill]

What a sea change we are seeing now that east pilots are going to be in the minority.

Now we are told that the minority has rights.

Now the union can't unilaterally dictate seniority. But for 5 years we were told they could.

Now a union can't put front just a single argument. Yet that is what east pilots have done for 8 years. DOH. Never once considering using the arbitrated list.

We were told the union has a wide range of reasonableness. If the new union decides that using an arbitrated list is reasonable what case do the east pilots have?

Once the Nicolau is implemented with a joint contract there will be no need for a legal case so ripe or not ripe will be moot. The case will slip into history. The east pilots can collect money and sue if you like but you will be fighting a 15000 pilot union with a whole lot more money and talent than the east can come up with.

The hypocrisy is getting thick these days. All the arguments the east tried to make are coming back to bite them in the ass.

I agree with you CD, word for word. Very well said!
Like I posted earlier, the entertainment is going to sky rocket around here for us honorable types on here.

 

[Phoenix]

It could be argued either way.

An MOU is a single agreement voted on by the pilots of both group modifying our contract to the same working conditions. Yes the argument can be make the MOU implements the Nicolau.

But if the smart lawyers so no then yes a joint contract between us airways pilots, APA and the new American would be a single agreement and implement the Nicolau award.

That will happen long before we get to seniority negotiations or arbitration.

Either way a pay raise includes the Nicolau. Vote down the MOU. Don't get the pay raise. Wait for the new union APA to get us a joint contract, get a raise and implement the Nicolau list.

All road lead to the arbitrated list.

You aren't being very clear (how ironic). You haven't identified what implements the Nic....?

 

[cleardirect]

You aren't being very clear (how ironic). You haven't identified what implements the Nic....?

A single agreement implements the Nicolau I have said that several times.

The question is does the MOU constitute a single agreement? Question for the lawyers.

Does a joint contract constitute a single agreement? Absolutely no question. Yes it does.

All roads lead to the Nicolau.

 

[Beancounter]

Question to Cleardirect:


CD reply:

Yes.

Do you favor stapling all the us airways new hires below APA furloughed pilots?


My thoughts:

I believe the just thing to do is have a furlough return at first opening and slot in at YOS completed. In fact, I would lean more toward slotting them back with their original doh then your pathetic stapling. Even to my own disadvantage , that would be the integrity thingy you awa folk talk bout.

FA

The majority of American pilots I know and have taked to have said something similar. Most of them discussed some form of relative seniority with protections, it would include the furloughs. When recalled they would take their seniority above the recent nehires, some even above myself.

Bean

 

[Phoenix]

The APA is not going to want DOH. ...

DOH is merely a very narrow point within a wide range of reasonableness. I am not too concerned about APA and USAPA exercising their responsibilities under M/B.

 

[Phoenix]

..

All roads lead to the Nicolau.

Wear red shoes and click your heels three times. Its your alternate method.

 

[cleardirect]

You aren't being very clear (how ironic). You haven't identified what implements the Nic....?

I have explained what implements the Nicolau.

What do you think implements a DOH list? What process does it take to get that?

Explain clearly and in detail.

 

[machflyer]

Everyone of you guys/gals are an embarrassment. A bunch of talking heads.
Discover something positive in your life and give this mindless ranting a rest.
Don't you see that you're toxic?

Original Rust head
DOH 7/89

 

[Metroyet]

DOH is merely a very narrow point within a wide range of reasonableness. I am not too concerned about APA and USAPA exercising their responsibilities under M/B.

DOH after it was rejected by an arbitration only to have a fake union organized for NO OTHER PURPOSE than to strip the West of their seniority rights is so Fking far outside the "wide range of reasonableness" that your argument is moot as it has no legal foundation to begin with. Besides, who is going to argue for DOH when USAPA is a rotting corpse? That's going to happen long BEFORE seniority integration gets touched by anybody official.

This entire MOU and Merger is set up to kill USAPA off first. You guys are to emotional and stupid to be trusted with anything. You can't get out of your own way so Daddy has to confiscate the car keys from you. You're not responsible enough to have them.

 

[cleardirect]

DOH is merely a very narrow point within a wide range of reasonableness. I am not too concerned about APA and USAPA exercising their responsibilities under M/B.

Better be careful. The rest of the usapa radical will string you up for disregarding the usapa C&BL and absolute belief that DOH is the gold standard and ONLY reasonable method of integration.

So after 5 years are you finally coming around that DOH is dead and impossible to achieve?

 

[EastUS1]

Adults have moved beyond the school yard meet me behind the jungle gym antics.

You exclude your own Ames from that then, as he's previously made multiple references about literally "beating people up" in schoolyards. Quotes available in the archives.

I understand that you're not up for even a recreational wager.....No surprise there. You couldn't cut it and you know it. But you're now, as magically as you so easilly became "spartans" and even "Larry Potta"...nowadays, as equally easilly, self-ascribed "Adults"..? Spare me! Do you pretend to even have many at all out there? No matter. Your videos, T-shirts, whining "And we hate you guys" types, etc would certainly indicate otherwise. I must now assume then, that we can finally dispense with any/all fantasies of you being ferocious little "spartans", or "knights" who've "fought with valor in many battles"? While we're at it: How about the insanely infantile notion that you're all proper paradigms of "integrity"? That, of it's self, is both clinically interesting....and hardly descriptive of any "Adults".

Drop all that crap, and you will have at least taken the first baby steps towards becoming "Adults". Go further towards respecting the work years of others and shedding the "It's ALL about MEEE!" perspective, and you will have arrived...Yeah...as if/etc.

Seriously though: Tell me/us all/ANYONE that THIS is the proper, or even POSSIBLE product of ANY semblance of supposed "Adults"...? ...I'll leave all you "Adult" west "knights", "spartans", "wizards" and "dire wolves" to now go back to fighting "many battles with valor" in supposed "war". 😉

 

[EastUS1]

While you pampered, smarmy, brain-dead, spoiled little brats, and utterly disgusting, "heroic" west "knights", "spartans" and "wizards" have been proudly sporting your "Dire Wolf"/"integrity matters"/whatever T-shirts, and..umm..."fighting"... "many battles with valor" in supposed "war":

http://www.washingto...noted/?page=all

Don't give any of that even a passing "thought" little west "heros", who've "fought with valor in many battles" as it has nothing to do with yourselves, your pathetic little excuses lives spent entirely in some narcisisstic little corner of Fantasyland, and thus..couldn't possibly matter to your sort.

 

[prechilill]

Yep, the east holes are definitely coming unglued! Lol

 

[fatherabraham]

The majority of American pilots I know and have taked to have said something similar. Most of them discussed some form of relative seniority with protections, it would include the furloughs. When recalled they would take their seniority above the recent nehires, some even above myself.

Bean

Bean,

Sounds as if we think similar concerning fairness of furlough pilot returns.
So the obvious question: do you think AAA furlough at our sli should have received same vs staple?

FA