Dec 2012 / Jan 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[prechilill]

M/B doesn't deny parties the right to willfully choose an alternate method.

You vote on an MOU. And if the parties agree that the MOU chooses M/B rather than an alternative, then the parties have indeed voted for M/B, as opposed to an alternative.

Wrong. MB is the endpoint in seniority disagreements, it guarantees arbitration is all it does. You're confusing two issues

 

[nevergiveup]

Yes.

Do you favor stapling all the us airways new hires below APA furloughed pilots?

I prefer not to trample one who is down on his or her luck.

 

[cleardirect]

Wow that sounds really complicated, but if all your assumptions are true and it all happens exactly like that then you should be sitting left seat 777 by the fall.

But if we vote on M/B in an MOU...
Or if M/B prevents a single union from unilaterally deciding seniority...
Or if M/B prevents a single union from unilaterally presenting a single argument to an arbitrator...
Or if unions are allowed to operate within a wide range of reasonableness and courts don't interfere or even allow lawsuits to be ripe until after a JCBA is ratified...

A trip to the SCOTUS is free if you are collecting dues, or if you don't exist.

M/B is federal law, you don't get to vote on that.

A single union can't decide seniority? That is not what usapa has been telling the courts.

ALPA was a single union. We just had as you like to say divisions. Usapa has been presenting a single argument to the company for 5 years was that wrong?

A joint contract makes the case ripe. The unions is not going to touch seniority until the joint contract is done. Then APA gets to decide what is a wide range of reasonableness. Not the east pilot as members of APA. Then an arbitrator is going to decide what a reasonable seniority list will be.

Usapa will not be collecting dues and a trip to SCOTUS is never free. If your case is dismissed you can't get to SCOTUS.

 

[700UW]

http://afaonevoice.org/images/McCaskill%20Amendment%20explanation%20FINAL%20for%20WEB.pdf

 

[cleardirect]

You dont vote on a law. The law was voted on by Congress and signed by the President.

It sets up a procedure that must be followed.

You cant pick and choose to ignore a Federal Law.

Something the east pilot have never figured out.

They think their little C&BL trump federal law.

Oh well, lesson coming their way.

 

[Phoenix]

M/B is federal law, you don't get to vote on that.
..

Read the law carefully. It does not prevent parties from mutually agreeing to an alternate method. Rather it stipulates quite clearly that the parties retain their rights to mutually agree to an alternate method if they deem it appropriate.

http://www.afaonevoi...askill text.pdf
http://www.atwfacts....mohawk-lpps.pdf

But don't spend too much time on it because I doubt you will be voting on any alternate method .

If M/B shows up in the MOU, then you will indeed be voting on it, in contrast to an alternate method. And that will make all the difference about what kind of lawsuits will be feasible/viable.

 

[dca319]

Wrong again. If the new union could do whatever it wanted there would be no MB law. Both pre-merger parties have rights.

That was an ugly post.

 

[Claxon]

HA! Ok. Just remember that an arbitration is powerful evidence of a fair result and abandoning it puts you scabs on dangerous ground. Also recall the scant 90 minutes it took a neutral jury of your peers to convict your fake union. I know you're to crazy to get all of this but the company and the APA isn't. Also, don't forget that the TA is clearly binding and you need an LUP, and agreement from the company to change it. You have neither and never will.

Here is what you never got. The jury in the wack job Wake Trial was part of a remanded decision. Remanded by the 9th Court of Appeals that said this:


[8] Plaintiffs seek to escape this conclusion by framing
their harm as the lost opportunity to have a CBA implementing
the Nicolau Award put to a ratification vote. Because
merely putting a CBA effectuating the Nicolau Award to a
ratification vote will not itself alleviate the West Pilots furloughs,
Plaintiffs have not identified a sufficiently concrete
injury.2 Additionally, USAPA’s final proposal may yet be one
that does not work the disadvantages Plaintiffs fear, even if
that proposal is not the Nicolau Award.3
So your Wake jury meant nothing. Nothing at all.

 

[cleardirect]

Wow that sounds really complicated, but if all your assumptions are true and it all happens exactly like that then you should be sitting left seat 777 by the fall.

But if we vote on M/B in an MOU...
Or if M/B prevents a single union from unilaterally deciding seniority...
Or if M/B prevents a single union from unilaterally presenting a single argument to an arbitrator...
Or if unions are allowed to operate within a wide range of reasonableness and courts don't interfere or even allow lawsuits to be ripe until after a JCBA is ratified...

A trip to the SCOTUS is free if you are collecting dues, or if you don't exist.

What a sea change we are seeing now that east pilots are going to be in the minority.

Now we are told that the minority has rights.

Now the union can't unilaterally dictate seniority. But for 5 years we were told they could.

Now a union can't put front just a single argument. Yet that is what east pilots have done for 8 years. DOH. Never once considering using the arbitrated list.

We were told the union has a wide range of reasonableness. If the new union decides that using an arbitrated list is reasonable what case do the east pilots have?

Once the Nicolau is implemented with a joint contract there will be no need for a legal case so ripe or not ripe will be moot. The case will slip into history. The east pilots can collect money and sue if you like but you will be fighting a 15000 pilot union with a whole lot more money and talent than the east can come up with.

The hypocrisy is getting thick these days. All the arguments the east tried to make are coming back to bite them in the ass.

 

[Phoenix]

What a sea change we are seeing now that east pilots are going to be in the minority.

Now we are told that the minority has rights.

Now the union can't unilaterally dictate seniority. But for 5 years we were told they could.

Now a union can't put front just a single argument. Yet that is what east pilots have done for 8 years. DOH. Never once considering using the arbitrated list.

We were told the union has a wide range of reasonableness. If the new union decides that using an arbitrated list is reasonable what case do the east pilots have?

Once the Nicolau is implemented with a joint contract there will be no need for a legal case so ripe or not ripe will be moot. The case will slip into history. The east pilots can collect money and sue if you like but you will be fighting a 15000 pilot union with a whole lot more money and talent than the east can come up with.

The hypocrisy is getting thick these days. All the arguments the east tried to make are coming back to bite them in the ass.

M/B did not apply to the LCC AWA merger, purchase,acquisition, or whatever you prefer to call it.

But M/B allows the parties to mutually choose an alternate method if they like. Perhaps the MOU that APA already agreed to, and that we will be voting on soon, includes using ALPA merger policy instead of M/B. Or maybe it doesn't.

 

[cleardirect]

Here is what you never got. The jury in the wack job Wake Trial was part of a remanded decision. Remanded by the 9th Court of Appeals that said this:


[8] Plaintiffs seek to escape this conclusion by framing
their harm as the lost opportunity to have a CBA implementing
the Nicolau Award put to a ratification vote. Because
merely putting a CBA effectuating the Nicolau Award to a
ratification vote will not itself alleviate the West Pilots furloughs,
Plaintiffs have not identified a sufficiently concrete
injury.2 Additionally, USAPA’s final proposal may yet be one
that does not work the disadvantages Plaintiffs fear, even if
that proposal is not the Nicolau Award.3
So your Wake jury meant nothing. Nothing at all.

You can continue to quote this but events are going to over run it. We I should say the us airways pilots not you will have a joint contract which makes the case ripe and implements the Nicolau. The ninths ruling will be interesting read but have no relevance anymore.

Usapa is not goings o have a chance to negotiate anything. Vote for or against (not you since you are not a member) but it will not stop the merger of change the terms of the MOU.

The APA will become the bargaining agent and they will hand the arbitrator the implemented Nicolau list and the APA list.

The east pilots can wail and scream all day long but it will not matter. Their union is doing what is best for a majority of the pilots, avoiding litigation. If some of the minority does not like that they have options. Options but no case and no dues money.

 

[cleardirect]

M/B did not apply to the LCC AWA merger, purchase,acquisition, or whatever you prefer to call it.

But M/B allows the parties to mutually choose an alternate method if they like. Perhaps the MOU that APA already agreed to, and that we will be voting on soon, includes using ALPA merger policy instead of M/B. Or maybe it doesn't.

Perhaps the APA would agree to use the flight attendants merger policy?

The only reason the term sheet said what method to use was because east pilots can't be trusted and you would try and weasel out.

If the term sheet said nothing what method would we use for integration?

 

[Phoenix]

You can continue to quote this but events are going to over run it. We I should say the us airways pilots not you will have a joint contract which makes the case ripe and implements the Nicolau. The ninths ruling will be interesting read but have no relevance anymore.

Usapa is not goings o have a chance to negotiate anything. Vote for or against (not you since you are not a member) but it will not stop the merger of change the terms of the MOU.

The APA will become the bargaining agent and they will hand the arbitrator the implemented Nicolau list and the APA list.

The east pilots can wail and scream all day long but it will not matter. Their union is doing what is best for a majority of the pilots, avoiding litigation. If some of the minority does not like that they have options. Options but no case and no dues money.

Is it your belief that the Nic will be implemented when/if the MOU for a proposed merger with AMR is ratified rather than when there is a JCBA ratified between LCC and its pilots?

 

[Phoenix]

Perhaps the APA would agree to use the flight attendants merger policy?

The only reason the term sheet said what method to use was because east pilots can't be trusted and you would try and weasel out.

If the term sheet said nothing what method would we use for integration?

Its probably too late for you to propose the FA merger policy, even though APA (who left ALPA decades ago) might prefer the FA policy to any suggestion to use ALPA policy.

 

[cleardirect]

Is it your belief that the Nic will be implemented when/if the MOU for a proposed merger with AMR is ratified rather than when there is a JCBA ratified between LCC and its pilots?

It could be argued either way.

An MOU is a single agreement voted on by the pilots of both group modifying our contract to the same working conditions. Yes the argument can be make the MOU implements the Nicolau.

But if the smart lawyers so no then yes a joint contract between us airways pilots, APA and the new American would be a single agreement and implement the Nicolau award.

That will happen long before we get to seniority negotiations or arbitration.

Either way a pay raise includes the Nicolau. Vote down the MOU. Don't get the pay raise. Wait for the new union APA to get us a joint contract, get a raise and implement the Nicolau list.

All road lead to the arbitrated list.