Dec 2012 / Jan 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[dca319]

Attorneys lie for a living and our NAC traded their support for improvements to the MOU. They agreed to support this mess and to sell it to the masses. What else would they say?

Wasn't a selling point of USAPA to have professional negotiators on property? And now that we have that, we don't listen. Again this reminds me of how ALPA National kept telling us to take the initial LOA 93 proposal and we didn't listen. In your eyes they're lying simply because they're not saying what you want to hear. You'll cop out with the excuse that everyone is lying to you until they agree with you.

A NO vote brings everyone back to the table.

A "No" vote does nothing of the sort. It MAY bring everyone back to the table but the way we've been treated (as an afterthought) makes that guess highly unlikely. The NAC and lawyers agree. You're simply speculating.

Billions of dollars and many golden parachutes are at stake, not to mention DP's rep.

I don't think their at stake one bit? You think we can do anything to even slow this down? Everyone is getting their payout and Doug's rep will remain intact. In fact, we'll know in about a week just how much is going out.

This is a no brainer, guys. Don't let the fake FUD rule your otherwise steeley, analytical brains.

I remember that from the bankruptcy days too. We also add "full pay to the last day" to that fake FUD bravado.

The money is an illusion.......

When its paying the bills it hardly seems like an illusion to me.

This agreement is a turd, and no matter how much lipstick and perfume you put on it, it still stinks.

So let's stick with LOA 93 a bit longer to show them how we feel? :huh:

I'm for the merger, but know there's a better deal to be had. It's the oldest negotiating trick in the book, used by car salesmen and insurance companies since the dawn of time. Set a false deadline, create fear, and pressure the rube to sign on the dotted line.
I'm not going to do that.
NO.

I'll call you when I'll be shopping around for a new car or insurance. But for the MoU, I'm going with our NAC and the lawyers I've been paying for all this time.

YES.

 

[Pi brat]

There is no rush to pass this MOU. AA just asked the judge for another extension to April 15th to file the standalone POR.
For many reasons, including the inane vague language of the MOU, I'm voting NO.
For the merger, against concessions.
There is a better deal.
NO.

You don't know there is a better deal. You think there is a better deal. Just as a PHL rep thought we'd be better off turning down the original LOA 93. That didn't turn out too well. How many west pilots "knew" the 9th would uphold Judge Wake's trial? How many east pilots "knew" that Kasher would pay? The day a merger is announced any leverage we had is gone, IMHO as always.

I understand your concerns. I share them. The thing is, I think we are going to live with the MOU and AA's green book whether we vote yes or no. The only difference I see is that if we vote no we will not get paid the same as AA pilots for quite some time.

There is time for the NAC to clarify language and I have sent that message to them.

Good luck to us all.

 

[EastUS1]

There is time for the NAC to clarify language and I have sent that message to them.

Good luck to us all.

Indeed to both Pi. Good luck to us all most especially applies if that language isn't cleaned up and enhanced.

 

[EastUS1]

A majority of us aren't about to play the same game of chicken we played in bankruptcy .....

As if you were part of any "we" around here at that time...? Spare me. If so; then you're a most singular individual among east pilots indeed, in that the vast majority of your early postings did nothing more than completely obsess over the nic. I'd have otherwise honestly figured you for a management shill.

No matter. Everyone should vote as they think best.

 

[dca319]

As if you were part of any "we" around here at that time...? Spare me. If so; then you're a most singular individual among east pilots indeed, in that the vast majority of your early postings did nothing more than completely obsess over the nic. I'd have otherwise honestly figured you for a management shill.

The little General doesn't like what his ego is reading so he gets angry. If you can't handle the majority viewpoint then I suggest you remove yourself from this board. I "obsess" over the Nicolau because I personally believe that we're in for a rude awakening when the SLI is finished and your little tantrums won't make it better either. And you weren't the only one here during bankruptcy Colonel. I've suffered through it like the rest of us its just that some of us are smart enough to move on. Reading Pi's post, I'd say he's in my camp. Is he a shill as well Major?

 

[Pi brat]

A no vote gets you ignored, left out in the rain and on loa93 for a few more years costing you hundreds of thousands of dollars. Isn't the 1.6 BILLION dollar freebie you gave to Parker over your temper tantrum enough? There is no table to go back to. You'll just be ignored until APA slays USTUPID. They probably won't be in much of a rush to address the concerns of a minority of yippy, annoying East whiners either.

In a way, I hope this gets voted down so you guys can ONCE AGAIN, be proven to be the dumbest MF'ers to ever menace the skies.

You know what metro. Our posts had a similar conclusion, but I hope mine had a better presentation.

If you really aren't a west pilot then I hope when this is all over you will come clean and explain your venom. There is something wrong if you are this angry and not personally involved.

 

[Pi brat]

Reading Pi's post, I'd say he's in my camp. Is he a shill as well Major?

Uh, wait a minute. Not on most of what you have written, just the MOU, that I can think of. Early on I pegged you as a west pilot, maybe one that came east. You may not be, there are a few that have written as passionately about the Nic as you have, but they are few and far between and I know some of their reasoning from flying with them.

 

[EastUS1]

The little General...Colonel.... Major...

I must hope you've more consistent, baseline "logic" and "thought" for your beliefs in support of this MOU...? 😉
I've some concerns in that regard. Observe your answer to: "What possible reason exists for rationally assuming they wouldn't cheerfully offer at least this marvelous, far-below-industry-standard deal up again?"

dca319: "And, to answer your last question, who knows?"

 

[luvthe9]

American Airlines pilots are a pretty hard-nosed bunch. In bankruptcy, they were handed an ultimatum from AMR management to “take it or leave it” and that was affirmed by their then APA President.
What did those boys do? They told AMR to go sit on a tack and they changed union leadership. We could learn something from those guys.
American started hiring in 1983 and whatever growth they have seen has come as a result of internal growth, very little from mergers.
USAirways, by stark contrast, is a motley amalgamation of various pilot groups, with little in the way of homogeneity. At the slightest sign of trouble, we seem to go all “Frenchy” and surrender. If we do that this time, we, most likely, will be dragging American along down with us. Now, understand that they will come out better than we, but the whole pilot group will be negatively impacted, for a decade, if we sign on to this MOU as now written.
Read and reflect upon the letter below. It was written for distribution to you and me, by a concerned American pilot. For obvious reasons, he wishes to remain anonymous.
Hope this helps to change some minds at USAirways.
Vote YES to a merger…but send this MOU back for improvement!


Letter from an anonymous American Airlines Pilot.
I think a bit of clarification is in order here with regard to that equity stake we got and why we got it.
When you look at what our guys lost with our new contract in expected pensions at retirement compared to what we'll now get with just a 14% 401k contribution, it was significant, particularly for the younger guys who didn't have a chance like I did to build up their A fund and are now forever frozen at F/O average pay and fewer years in the plan. Then when you look at what the productivity concessions due to expected career progression and quality of life, all but the most senior guys are harmed.

Again, the more junior guys are really taking it in the shorts. Then the more senior guys like me just lost our possibility of a big lump sum payout on the A fund when we retire and are now butt-jammed with an annuity that ends when we (or a designated survivor) die, leaving nothing of that money to our estate. That one REALLY chaps my ass because I had an expected payout of between $500-600k coming from that lump sum which I hoped to bank and pass on to my kids. All of these things combined represent a significant loss to us as a result of AA's manufactured bankruptcy.

The reason we have a seat on the UCC is that we have a significant claim against the company for those losses. And they know it. The 13.5% stake was offered to us to compensate us for our legal claim of damages that we could pursue in court. In return, we agreed to take that as full settlement of our damages claim, even though none of us believe we'll be anywhere nearly fully compensated for our losses.

Bottom line, that stake represents a damages award. It was not just a windfall payout we got in negotiations. If we'd turned down the second TA, they'd have withdrawn that offer and we'd have had to go through a lengthy and costly court battle to extract our damages with no assurances we'd get even that much and very little chance of getting any more. Facing that choice, most guys took the bait and voted yes.
APA now has a committee determining how that pot of equity will be split up. First they're going to divide the money into several smaller pots (which they call silos) and then come up with formulas to determine how much each guy gets from that specific pot.

For example, a guy with half my seniority will get twice what I get from the pension loss pot, more than me for the career progression loss pot, but less than me for the loss of lump sum pot. When all of these separate pots are calculated, we'll each learn what percentage we'll get of that 13.5% equity. It remains to be seen whether we'll be able to roll that money into IRA or 401k accounts or if we'll be forced (as Delta was) to take it in one lump sum as compensation, which would have major tax implications. APA's legal guys are working hard on getting appropriate legislation in place to allow us to defer the tax liability by rolling it into retirement accounts.
APA made it clear to us that the stake we were getting would be based upon whatever company exits from bankruptcy. Your guys are absolutely correct that we'll get more value from that equity if we merge because the value of the "New American" will very definitely be worth more merged than it would as a standalone company. Estimates I heard were that a merged company would likely boost the value of the equity stake by roughly 50%. My understanding is that if we merge after we exit BK, our equity will be in the standalone AA. If we elect to keep our shares instead of cashing out that equity, they may jump in value if a merger occurs later, but from all the indications I've heard, it seem more likely we'll merge before we exit.
Where USAPA may have a problem on getting a similar slice of the pie is that unlike APA there are no damages I'm aware of that you can claim so far as this deal is concerned. Where I personally think you guys have a claim is to compensate you for that successor clause you have in your current contract. That your union just gave that away is unconscionable to me. I hope that if your MOU approval goes down, you guys make it clear to Parker that was the main reason you voted no. You have that money coming and equity is probably his easiest way of dealing with it.
I know you told me this before, but when will the results be announced on your vote? Sounds from what you're sending me like there's a lot of NO momentum growing. Hopefully your guys will make the effort to educate themselves enough to make an informed decision rather than just follow like sheep.
Good luck,
zzz--American Airlines Pilot

​

 

[dca319]

Uh, wait a minute. Not on most of what you have written, just the MOU, that I can think of. Early on I pegged you as a west pilot, maybe one that came east. You may not be, there are a few that have written as passionately about the Nic as you have, but they are few and far between and I know some of their reasoning from flying with them.

Wait what minute? Your post 5957 is something I would post almost to the word. So I'd say you and I are more in agreement than you are with East. And there are mare than a "few" east pilots that think the Nicolau is not something that we can merely brush off. Most won't talk about it publicly for obvious reasons. Look at how you and east automatically assign a west tag or management shill to me just because I don't harrumph anyone who posts anything other than the Nicolau is dead.

 

[dca319]

I must hope you've more consistent, baseline "logic" and "thought" for your beliefs in support of this MOU...? 😉
I've some concerns in that regard. Observe your answer to: "What possible reason exists for rationally assuming they wouldn't cheerfully offer at least this marvelous, far-below-industry-standard deal up again?"

dca319: "And, to answer your last question, who knows?"

Sorry I can't predict the future for you east and make your life a bit easier. What I like to do, as do most, is take what I know and assign a probability to it. If you'd like a percentage, I'll try to give you one. But, ultimately, no one knows how this is going to turn out for sure. But I'm betting that we have better odds with the APA and being involved than your way. I have some concerns as well that you need such absolutes to figure out that we don't stand a chance as USAPA. How much progress has USAPA made in advancing the concerns of our pilot group?

And you have yet to come up with an acceptable solution to the company not coming back to the table if we vote down this MoU.

 

[ON2ALK]

My God....getting furloughed from US Air after 9-11 was the best thing to ever happen to my career! You guys have lost your minds.

 

[Walmartgreeter]

Luv just gave us a "Letter from an anonymous American Airlines Pilot." And the posting had bold print, some color, and even a little picture. SO clever! It's a little self-contained shiny brochure right here on the forum!!

Let me see, I should base my vote on the ranting's of Luv using an anonymous source from another airline...or perhaps listen to our ENTIRE BPR, Officers, NAC, and Legal? I am torn. Kind of like Luv, still not sure how he is going to vote, thus his angst.

Is that all you got Luv, really?

Greeter

 

[eastcoast]

send this MOU back for improvement!

You are a one note fiddle.

We get it. You voted "no."

Most of us are voting "yes." It's probably going to pass.

Do you really think you are influencing anyone here? By now we are all on one side of the fence or the other. Give it a rest already. You are starting to sound obnoxious.

 

[luvthe9]

Luv just gave us a "Letter from an anonymous American Airlines Pilot." And the posting had bold print, some color, and even a little picture. SO clever! It's a little self-contained shiny brochure right here on the forum!!

Let me see, I should base my vote on the ranting's of Luv using an anonymous source from another airline...or perhaps listen to our ENTIRE BPR, Officers, NAC, and Legal? I am torn. Kind of like Luv, still not sure how he is going to vote, thus his angst.

Is that all you got Luv, really?

Greeter

No Chip, there could be more.