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Dec 2012 / Jan 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

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Richard Obermeyer (LGA)
Editor, US AIRWAVES
Summer/Fall 2007

Partial part of article

"The next false argument made in the AWA
communications is the one that says that, since
our models showed every pilot always bidding
to the highest-paying piece of equipment as soon
as possible, our number of captain years lost as
a result of this list is somehow false. We say that
this number is over 4,000 years of captain flying
that was transferred to the AWA pilots. They
make no attempt to say what the real number is,
but they say our number is wrong and that our
model is wrong. They try to say that since realworld
bidding isn’t what was reflected in our
model, then the number produced by the model
is not valid. Is that really the case? Clearly, this
is another argument made by the AWA pilots
designed to confuse the issue.
Let’s set up a simple example: There are 10
widebody Captain positions available. In this
example, East pilots will be identified with an
“e” before their number and West with a “w.”
The 10 widebody positions are filled by the
following pilots before the merger: e1, e2, e5,
e6, e8, e10, e11, e13, e19 and e21. Now let’s say
that pilot e8 retires. On the merged list, there is
a section of the list that is as follows: e11, w8,
e12, w9, e13 e14, w10, e15. In this example, w9
bids for and is awarded the position. Even if no
AAA pilot except for the aforementioned Jim
Ziegler wanted that position, is that a transfer of
widebody Captain’s pay from an AAA pilot to
an AWA pilot?
Since virtually every AWA pilot on the merged
list is ahead of Jim, if one of them bids for and
fills that position, is the year of Captain’s pay
transferred to a West pilot or not? The fact that
the model used “stove piped” the bidders is
irrelevant to the fact that the transfer occurred.
The model used by the AAA pilots never attempted
to identify the actual pilot who lost the
pay, merely the fact that some pilot lost it.
Somehow the communications coming from the
AWA pilot leadership leaves that part out.
Now for the worst of the statements made by
the AWA pilot leadership. They say that they
would be outraged if the AAA pilots are brought
up to parity with them on rates of pay. Bottom
line here is that the AWA pilots don’t believe
that we should be paid as much as them. Let me
say that again: Two years after this merger, even
after the AAA pilots supported the changes that
enhanced the AWA pilots’ retirement, and even
after they have been brought into our profit
sharing plan, they don’t think that we should
receive equal pay for equal work. If we aren’t
willing to accept the outrageous Nicolau award,
then we aren’t deserving of equal pay for equal
work. Did the AWA pilots express their outrage
when any other group or individual was brought
to pay parity with their counterpart on the other
side? If the situation was reversed, would the
AWA pilots want equal pay for equal work? Did
the AWA pilots believe that they should receive
parity when it came to retirement plans? Just to
be clear here, the leadership of one labor group
will be outraged and will actively oppose the
members of another labor group getting a raise.
Say this out loud and see how it sounds: “Unless
the AAA pilots drop their opposition to the
Nicolau award, the AWA pilots don’t believe
the AAA pilots deserve equal pay for equal
work!”
In essence, if you are willing to give your
future to the AWA pilots, then they will believe
that your work is worth as much as theirs. I guess
there is a different kind of trade unionism in
Phoenix. They must have missed the part of
“Flying the Line” that talks about the theory of
pattern bargaining that says you jack the house
up one corner at a time. Too bad the AWA pilots
weren’t members of our union during the Bscale
era. If they were, they would have learned
that the top of the scale will stagnate while the Bscale
is eliminated. In the end, the AWA pilots
will get a bigger raise if the pay rates are equal
at the start, because we will all be united in that
fight, but they will have to learn this lesson all on
their own."
 
You will find out the results of the Legitimate Union Purpose in, on average, ten plus years from now.



Well...While I don't believe that they have anything approaching a winning case at this point; I'd agree that the poster's observation is worth bearing in mind. It's a shame none out west appear to do so.....Must be the peyote ceremonies methinks. Metro: "Also, bear in mind that the TWA pilots were awarded a decision Against ALPA 13 years after the fact."
Let's note that one again, for any truly challenged readers that may be present = "....13 years after the fact."
 
Well...While I don't believe that they have anything approaching a winning case at this point; I'd agree that the poster's observation is worth bearing in mind. It's a shame none out west appear to do so.....Must be the peyote ceremonies methinks. Metro: "Also, bear in mind that the TWA pilots were awarded a decision Against ALPA 13 years after the fact."
Let's note that one again, for any truly challenged readers that may be present = "....13 years after the fact."
The point, dear windbag, is that NO amount of time will wash away the rights of the West pilots regarding the Nic. Phoenix has worked himself into an hysteria cataloging all of the things he thinks have changed enough to nullify the Rights of West pilots. All of which are irrelevant. The story is exactly as it was years ago. Nic. Or loa 93 WITHOUT END.

Period.
 
The point, dear windbag, is that NO amount of time will wash away the rights of the West pilots regarding the Nic. Phoenix has worked himself into an hysteria cataloging all of the things he thinks have changed enough to nullify the Rights of West pilots. All of which are irrelevant. The story is exactly as it was years ago. Nic. Or loa 93 WITHOUT END.

Period.
You are wrong. The company needs the US Airways pilots, or no merger. The offer will be AMR pilot minimum. with a retro incentive. Since the west was given a retirement DC plan, plus profit sharing, this will be taken out of the west's retro share, since they refused to back the east pay parity. Best of luck to you.
 
West was making more pay. The East pilots gave the west DC contribution and profit sharing. The west retro check will be 90 percent smaller due to this. Your attempt at a PBGC land grab, that you did not earn, was your west groups feeble attempt to increase a retro pay out. Best of luck to you.

http://definitions.uslegal.com/r/retroactive-pay/
 
...The story is exactly as it was years ago. Nic. Or loa 93 WITHOUT END.

Period.

Indeed. I am also part of the NDA talks at Dallas, as are you, but lets not tell anyone, ok? We can confirm that the discussion is LOA 93, without end, or Nic, and the APA has been told they have until Dec 31st. They are expressly forbidden to engage in any pilot seniority cooperation of any kind and have no leeway to consider any alternatives within any range of reasonableness at all, ever, period, dot. The end.
 
See the west pilots were given by the East pilots a 10 percent defined contribution amount. They were also given profit sharing. Average west DNC amount 142,000 x 10 = 14,200 a year. 4000 per year profit sharing. 142000 wages minus 124 wages equal 18,000 per year.

Because the East lost per year from the west, because the west reneged on parity support, the east deserves most of the retro pay out.

This has no chance of an argument point from the west pilots, East will be made whole. Best of luck to you.
 
Indeed. I am also part of the NDA talks at Dallas, as are you, but lets not tell anyone, ok? We can confirm that the discussion is LOA 93, without end, or Nic, and the APA has been told they have until Dec 31st. They are expressly forbidden to engage in any pilot seniority cooperation of any kind and have no leeway to consider any alternatives within any range of reasonableness at all, ever, period, dot. The end.
Something other than the nic will only be considered "reasonable" if the Nic is the yardstick used to measure the new agreement. DOH...a defacto stapling of 85% of the West pilots who actually brought a job to this party isn't ever going to be considered reasonable. You have more than enough evidence to draw that conclusion....if you're reasonable. Parker doesn't need USAPA in the slightest to pull this off. Your fake union will be cast aside regardless of any actions they take from here forward. Kirby spelled it out for you.
 
Had a couple of AMR pilots on to MIA today, they also hear on their end that the merge should be pretty soon, so I had to ask their thoughts on the seniority issue they were fine with DOH and a 5 to 7 yr fence, one had 29 yrs in and the other 20. Then asked if they were familar with the NIC and what they thought of it, needless to say it won't be used.
 
Something other than the nic will only be considered "reasonable" if the Nic is the yardstick used to measure the new agreement.

Faith-based, cultist beliefs like yours do not a successful legal outcome make. In any case, as you noted from the TWA people's experience (even though they actually had a solid case) that it took, umm...how many years again? Oh yes, as you mentioned = 13 years after the fact. Have they seen any benefit from that case yet? No matter to the faithful and devout, I suppose....well....just take your best shot and hope for the best. Let us all know how it all plays out for the righteous west....assuming anyone still cares.
 
Something other than the nic will only be considered "reasonable" if..

Oh, you are slipping. Indeed "reasonable" is the standard, "wide range of resaonablness" to be more accurate. Well actually to be accurate it doesn't mean squat in Dallas. Piot seniority cooperation will undoubtedly fall well withing the range.
 
They are expressly forbidden to engage in any pilot seniority cooperation of any kind and have no leeway to consider any alternatives within any range of reasonableness at all, ever, period, dot. The end.

Indeed. Anything else would violate all currently existing tenets of required and long-sustained west fantasies.
 
Had a couple of AMR pilots on to MIA today, they also hear on their end that the merge should be pretty soon, so I had to ask their thoughts on the seniority issue they were fine with DOH and a 5 to 7 yr fence, one had 29 yrs in and the other 20. Then asked if they were familar with the NIC and what they thought of it, needless to say it won't be used.
The only thing the AA jumpseaters dislike more than the idea of NICing their seniority list is Tom Horton getting a windfall too.
 
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