Dec 2012 / Jan 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[dca319]

Thats not exactly how Judge Silver said it... for your review...


"Airline Pilots Association’s seniority proposal does not breach its duty of fair representation provided it is supported by a legitimate union purpose."

Your hope is that 1) someone, anyone, anyone anywhere, will disallow USAPA to retain and use their seniority proposal, and 2) that someone, anyone, anyone anywhere will instead issue USAPA the Nic as their only seniority proposal. The LUP language is not what you want it to be. It is not a merit test before a seniority proposal is used, but rather a merit test after the fact. Who do you propose will use the LUP language before the fact, if Silver didn't? Who has the authority to do what Silver couldn't?


Also for your consideration...

"American Airlines and US Airways, with participation of committee counsel for the Unsecured Creditors Committee, are pleased that they have completed discussions with the Allied Pilots Association and US Airline Pilots Association intended to develop a framework for the terms of employment for pilots, as well as a process for pilot integration, in the event of a merger between AA and US during restructuring."​

Another question for your consideration....

If ALL pilots vote on a process of integration that fails to explicitly require the Nic, does Judge Silver's order remain intact, and is the West still bound by it? Are you sure that the old TA will have any relevance at all?

The MoU will not specify lists directly but merely the process by which integration will occur. That's why no one voted against the MoU - no lists mentioned. We will get a contract first and then integrate. Once integration is done it'll become effective immediately. BTW, from what I've been told, USAPA will be long gone when the time for SLI comes. And, as I've said, it sounds like they'll be using Niclau for our side.

 

[dca319]

Status quo... I thought the whole point of a new TA is that it moves beyond the status quo..

But even after the new TA, is Judge Silver's ruling still binding?

It will be irrelevant.

 

[Phoenix]

The MoU will not specify lists directly but merely the process by which integration will occur. That's why no one voted against the MoU - no lists mentioned. We will get a contract first and then integrate. Once integration is done it'll become effective immediately. BTW, from what I've been told, USAPA will be long gone when the time for SLI comes. And, as I've said, it sounds like they'll be using Niclau for our side.

So when is the Nic in effect again?

 

[cleardirect]

Thats not exactly how Judge Silver said it... for your review...


[font=times new roman']"Airline Pilots Association’s seniority proposal does not breach its duty of fair representation [font=times new roman']provided it is supported by a legitimate union purpose." [/font][/font]

Your hope is that 1) someone, anyone, anyone anywhere, will disallow USAPA to retain and use their seniority proposal, and 2) that someone, anyone, anyone anywhere will instead issue USAPA the Nic as their only seniority proposal. The LUP language is not what you want it to be. It is not a merit test before a seniority proposal is used, but rather a merit test after the fact. Who do you propose will use the LUP language before the fact, if Silver didn't? Who has the authority to do what Silver couldn't?


Also for your consideration...

"American Airlines and US Airways, with participation of committee counsel for the Unsecured Creditors Committee, are pleased that they have completed discussions with the Allied Pilots Association and US Airline Pilots Association intended to develop a framework for the terms of employment for pilots, as well as a process for pilot integration, in the event of a merger between AA and US during restructuring."​

Another question for your consideration....

If ALL pilots vote on a process of integration that fails to explicitly require the Nic, does Judge Silver's order remain intact, and is the West still bound by it? Are you sure that the old TA will have any relevance at all?

I think you have hit on the point. Why did Robert Siegel hold his head in his hands when he read judge Silvers order? Why is the company appealing her order?

No it is not a merit test before a DFR. That is the point. The company has to decide before they negotiate if they THINK usapa has an LUP. Go through the entire process, sign a contract then wait for a court to decide if they made a mistake or not. Make a mistake and lose a very expensive case. The company does not want to be the judge and decide if usapa LUP is legal or not. So the safe ground for the company to stand on is the Nicolau.

Question for you. If the MOU does not specifically deny the Nicolau or specifically state DOH does it change the current T/A?

 

[Claxon]

"In the US Airways - America West case, it went to binding arbitration but there was a requirement as part of that that the two unions negotiate a joint contract with the company, which wasn't done yet.
"And because it wasn't done yet, the side that didn't like it could prevent a joint contract from getting done. And because of that, the seniority integration never happened."

http://wewantourmoneyback.net/scott_kirby_merrill_lynch_call.php

 

[cleardirect]

Also for your consideration...

"American Airlines and US Airways, with participation of committee counsel for the Unsecured Creditors Committee, are pleased that they have completed discussions with the Allied Pilots Association and US Airline Pilots Association intended to develop a framework for the terms of employment for pilots, as well as a process for pilot integration, in the event of a merger between AA and US during restructuring."​

Another question for your consideration....

If ALL pilots vote on a process of integration that fails to explicitly require the Nic, does Judge Silver's order remain intact, and is the West still bound by it? Are you sure that the old TA will have any relevance at all?

I used to laugh at you east pilots now I just feel sorry for you. So desperate like a drowning man grasping at anything that might save you and willing to take down anyone near you.

Yes the MOU will cover pilot integration. So does the current MOU. You seem to imply that integration and seniority integration are the same thing.

Our current T/A covers pilot integration, scope, aircraft tail number, ect including HOW seniority will be done. It does not say what the list will be. Our current T/A said that senority integration will be done using ALPA merger policy. That policy was followed and the list accepted by the company. That list is the list for US Airways. Part of the integration was how and when to use that list. The list is done a joint contract is not.

A joint contract with east, west and APA will finish that portion of the T/A.

The new T/A also states the method used for seniority integration. M/B! Nothing in this new T/A is going to supersede the last arbitration. Unless it specifically states that the Nicolau is no longer valid the Nicolau list is the only list to be used by US Airways. That list does not just disappear into the ether.

I know, I know usapa has the right to negotiate with the company over seniority, infinity. You guys repeat it all the time. But if no one is willing to negotiate with you because of legal constraints that argument is moot. In addition if the new union APA takes a new position that the Nicolau is the seniority list for the "other domiciles" there is nothing to discuss. Remember Sehams argument in court? That the new union gets to decide what they want to negotiate for even if it is something other than the first union wanted.That was the argument you made, it is now going to come bite you in the a$$.

The MOU will be the road map to pilot integration which includes but not exclusively seniority integration, Of all the parties to this agreement everyone except east pilots have accepted the Nicolau as the list and will avoid litigation by using the list.

This time Parker learned from his mistakes and is not going to let the east mess up the merger and integration this time. Hope you enjoyed your separate ops because it is coming to an end.

 

[cleardirect]

So, if the USAPA or APA members vote NO, then the merger is off? I can't imagine any of the UCC agreeing to pursue the merger further with the possibility of a pilot integration mess like you have been dealing with for the past 7 years.

No!

The president of usapa stated in a video that usapa can not stop the merger.

A no vote would simply mean that the US Airways pilots would not participate or receive a pay raise until the new union could negotiate a joint contract for the US Airways pilots. Probably 12 -18 months after the merger.

 

[cleardirect]

With that expressed attitude...You apparently feel that you/we/all at what's now only laughably called USAirways, deserve nothing more than the scraps..and should simply settle for such? Well...that'll certainly make it really easy for both the company and the APA to grant your wishes...and YOU speak of meltdowns?

You get what you negotiate and usapa is incapable of negotiating anything other than scraps.
So yeah pretty much because of east pilots we take what is offered. No leverage, no ability.

 

[cleardirect]

Status quo... I thought the whole point of a new TA is that it moves beyond the status quo..

But even after the new TA, is Judge Silver's ruling still binding?

Judge Silvers ruling will be moot as the company and APA will not negotiate for anything other than the Nicolau. No need to worry about LUP's.

usapa will be gone and the new union will represent us. enjoy the new majority.

 

[EastUS1]

So yeah pretty much because of east pilots we take what is offered.

How anyone decides to vote depends entirely on their own thoughts. It's a pity you clearly have none to offer, other than immediate and unconditional surrender to whatever's offered, and without so much as even looking at it first! All west posters who've written about it so far, would equally constitute "easy kills" from management's perspective. Small wonder to me anymore why AWA set the lowest possible bar for compensation for so many years...which, none can now doubt, was all the fault of the evil easties, whom you'd not yet even met....The west pilot contingent would be a true dream come true for any unscrupulous management to have at their easy beck and call.

Oh well. I give up here. Whatever comes of this won't much concern me for long. You'll be the ones having to live with your choices and decisions. If just accepting the "scraps" as one westie noted, suits you just fine in advance of even knowing what said scraps are...well...it's really not my problem.

 

[cltrat]

How anyone decides to vote depends entirely on their own thoughts. It's a pity you clearly have none to offer, other than immediate and unconditional surrender to whatever's offered, and without so much as even looking at it first! All west posters who've written about it so far, would equally constitute "easy kills" from management's perspective. Small wonder to me anymore why AWA set the lowest possible bar for compensation for so many years...which, none can now doubt, was all the fault of the evil easties, whom you'd not yet even met....The west pilot contingent would be a true dream come true for any unscrupulous management to have at their easy beck and call.

Oh well. I give up here. Whatever comes of this won't much concern me for long. You'll be the ones having to live with your choices and decisions. If just accepting the "scraps" as one westie noted, suits you just fine in advance of even knowing what said scraps are...well...it's really not my problem.

maybe I just missed it but is there documentation anywhere where APA has expressed agreement and support for the Nic?

 

[dca319]

maybe I just missed it but is there documentation anywhere where APA has expressed agreement and support for the Nic?

No. But they have stated that the integration will look something like what Niclau put together. And they haven't expressed agreement with our position either.

 

[flyingskier]

maybe I just missed it but is there documentation anywhere where APA has expressed agreement and support for the Nic?

No, there is not.

The official list to be used in any SLI for the US Airways pilots is date of hire with conditions and restrictions. The Nic is a list that is no longer valid and will not be used in any future SLI.

The APA is not stupid, which is what they would be if they used the Nic. If the Nic were used in an SLI with American, In ten to fifteen years the top of the list would be made up almost entirely of former American West pilots. Not going to happen.

Skier

 

[dca319]

So when is the Nic in effect again?

Your guess is as good has mine. But if its going to be used, it'll be after USAPA is gone, we have a contract in place, and the APA is completely running SLI

 

[dca319]

No, there is not.

The official list to be used in any SLI for the US Airways pilots is date of hire with conditions and restrictions. The Nic is a list that is no longer valid and will not be used in any future SLI.

The APA is not stupid, which is what they would be if they used the Nic. If the Nic were used in an SLI with American, In ten to fifteen years the top of the list would be made up almost entirely of former American West pilots. Not going to happen.

Skier

You cannot state that unequivocally. The Niclau is still the only list in the company's possession. We have passed nothing across the table and the courts have indicated we better have a darn good LUP to move off that list. The APA has also stated that integration will be slotted as well an to Niclau used. So for you to state what you stated is irresponsible.