Dec 2012 / Jan 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[cleardirect]

If I could vote I'd vote no, if you're referring to me..

Poor Jamie.

Once again changing your position. Strong support of ALPA, quit ALPA, strong support of usapa, quit usapa. Guess that makes your a quitter or a fair weather supporter. You going to support APA right before you quit APA?

Did your baby usapa let you down like ALPA did?

It is the same people what did you expect to change?

 

[dca319]

Courtney loves to talk tough, but in the end, he is just an obese, barely talented bigmouth with a ten year old girl's first name.

 

[dca319]

So should we staple a loser bankrupt airline like AA?

Oh how quickly we forget.

 

[Pi brat]

So you're a firm "no" vote.

Right?

So your reading comprehension and retention are no better than your math skills. I hope that flying thing has worked out better for you.

 

[luvthe9]

PARITY UPDATE 2
The group 1 dilemma

There have been many questions why I didn’t complete a group 1 rate calculation when I estimated the January 01, 2016 rates for groups 2, 3 and 4. The reason is simple, at this point; there are too many unknowns. Specifically, what Delta and United Management will decide with respect to group 1 aircraft at their respective airlines? That’s correct; our group 1 rate is in the hands of Delta and United Management. Maybe that’s a good thing seeing how poorly US Airways Management has treated its own pilots for the past 7 years….maybe not.
The following relevant language is from Supplement A of the APA CBA :
If at the time Industry Comparable Pay Rates
are calculated the Company operates an aircraft type that United
Continental Holdings or Delta Airlines does not
operate, the hourly base pay rates for the most comparable
aircraft type, based on maximum certificated
seating capacity, will be used.

Put another way, if on DOS +30 DL and UA operates EMB 190 or CSJ 900 then the Group 1 rate will be $139.42. If either operates the EMB 190 or CSJ 900 then $139.42 will be ½ of the equation and the other ½ will in all likelihood be one of the rates listed below. Remember, if either DL or UA doesn’t operate the EMB 190 then we use the most comparable aircraft type, based on maximum certificated seating capacity. This will probably be the A319, B737 500 at UA and the B717 at DL.

Below are the rates so you can calculate the group 1 rate.
UA
A319, B737 500 = $208.62
EMB 195 = $163.88
EMB 190, CRJ 900 = 139.42

DL
B717 = $208.62
EMB 195 = 163.88
EMB 190, CRJ 900 = 139.42



NOT SO FAST, you’re forgetting a few very important details
Unlike the Parity Review in the 1998 Agreement that measured parity several times, parity in the APA CBA measures parity only once. This is problematic because the EMB 195 is locked in to the EMB 190.
Assume when the comparable pay rates are calculated the new AA operates the EMB 195. Also assume that DL and UA operates the EMB 195 (group 1 AC) at a rate of $163.88 for both airlines. We would then ride their coattails and make $163.88 for the EMB 195 correct? WRONG!! Remember from my prior parity update that no group can increase greater than 16.5 %, which for group 1 is $147.72 (provided by APA). Since the EMB 195 is in group 1 we can never be paid industry standard for that EMB 195.
Even worse, DL and UA operate the EMB 190 when we determine parity and we are now locked into $139.42 and then shortly thereafter the new AA takes its first EMB 195 delivery. Sorry folks, we’re locked into the lower EMB 190 rate of $139.42 and will never realize anything close to the DL or UA EMB 195 rate. This will result in the EMB 195 pilots being paid 15% below industry standard. I guess we’re still suffering g from that pesky revenue disadvantage.
I’ll bet APA and the NAC never thought of that one. Well come to think about it, maybe APA did.
Why didn’t anyone ask me? Ask Gary Hummel.

Paul DiOrio

 

[Portly Dorman]

So should we staple a loser bankrupt airline like AA?

Why didn't that happen to US Airways?

 

[Portly Dorman]

The pit bull squeaks, I mean speaks.

Hey Paulie, you had 5 (five) years at the table to get us a contract. You failed. You were replaced because of your inability to agree to anything.

Lets try to move forward instead of falling further behind the industry.

PARITY UPDATE 2
The group 1 dilemma

There have been many questions why I didn’t complete a group 1 rate calculation when I estimated the January 01, 2016 rates for groups 2, 3 and 4. The reason is simple, at this point; there are too many unknowns. Specifically, what Delta and United Management will decide with respect to group 1 aircraft at their respective airlines? That’s correct; our group 1 rate is in the hands of Delta and United Management. Maybe that’s a good thing seeing how poorly US Airways Management has treated its own pilots for the past 7 years….maybe not.
The following relevant language is from Supplement A of the APA CBA :
If at the time Industry Comparable Pay Rates
are calculated the Company operates an aircraft type that United
Continental Holdings or Delta Airlines does not
operate, the hourly base pay rates for the most comparable
aircraft type, based on maximum certificated
seating capacity, will be used.

Put another way, if on DOS +30 DL and UA operates EMB 190 or CSJ 900 then the Group 1 rate will be $139.42. If either operates the EMB 190 or CSJ 900 then $139.42 will be ½ of the equation and the other ½ will in all likelihood be one of the rates listed below. Remember, if either DL or UA doesn’t operate the EMB 190 then we use the most comparable aircraft type, based on maximum certificated seating capacity. This will probably be the A319, B737 500 at UA and the B717 at DL.

Below are the rates so you can calculate the group 1 rate.
UA
A319, B737 500 = $208.62
EMB 195 = $163.88
EMB 190, CRJ 900 = 139.42

DL
B717 = $208.62
EMB 195 = 163.88
EMB 190, CRJ 900 = 139.42



NOT SO FAST, you’re forgetting a few very important details
Unlike the Parity Review in the 1998 Agreement that measured parity several times, parity in the APA CBA measures parity only once. This is problematic because the EMB 195 is locked in to the EMB 190.
Assume when the comparable pay rates are calculated the new AA operates the EMB 195. Also assume that DL and UA operates the EMB 195 (group 1 AC) at a rate of $163.88 for both airlines. We would then ride their coattails and make $163.88 for the EMB 195 correct? WRONG!! Remember from my prior parity update that no group can increase greater than 16.5 %, which for group 1 is $147.72 (provided by APA). Since the EMB 195 is in group 1 we can never be paid industry standard for that EMB 195.
Even worse, DL and UA operate the EMB 190 when we determine parity and we are now locked into $139.42 and then shortly thereafter the new AA takes its first EMB 195 delivery. Sorry folks, we’re locked into the lower EMB 190 rate of $139.42 and will never realize anything close to the DL or UA EMB 195 rate. This will result in the EMB 195 pilots being paid 15% below industry standard. I guess we’re still suffering g from that pesky revenue disadvantage.
I’ll bet APA and the NAC never thought of that one. Well come to think about it, maybe APA did.
Why didn’t anyone ask me? Ask Gary Hummel.

Paul DiOrio

 

[luvthe9]

Lets try to move forward instead of falling further behind the industry.

AWA, the leaders since inception at keeping "behind the industry" pay. AWA the place to go when no one else will hire you.

 

[N924PS]

If I could vote I'd vote no, if you're referring to me..

I was not referring to you. There is at least one other founder that posts here often and has declared he is a YES voter.

 

[cactusboy53]

AWA, the leaders since inception at keeping "behind the industry" pay. AWA the place to go when no one else will hire you.

Ohh, that's original. Wait a minute....I'm pretty sure that we got the first post-9/11 contract that was leaps and bounds better than your LOA93 (..that's ALPA's fault, of course). So are you saying that ALL pilots at AWA are losers and couldn't get hired anywhere else???

Hey..Why don't you bring up the sins of our past, poo mailing, false RICO charges, false ID theft charges, and other hyperbole? Oh wait...you have. Better yet, why don't you take a long walk off a short pier (I was always fond of that saying)?.

CB

 

[cleardirect]

[font=Times New Roman']PARITY UPDATE 2[/font]
[font=Times New Roman']The group 1 dilemma [/font]

[font=Times New Roman']There have been many questions why I didn’t complete a group 1 rate calculation when I estimated the January 01, 2016 rates for groups 2, 3 and 4. The reason is simple, at this point; there are too many unknowns. Specifically, what Delta and United Management will decide with respect to group 1 aircraft at their respective airlines? That’s correct; our group 1 rate is in the hands of Delta and United Management. Maybe that’s a good thing seeing how poorly US Airways Management has treated its own pilots for the past 7 years….maybe not.[/font]
[font=Times New Roman']The following relevant language is from Supplement A of the APA CBA :[/font]
[font=Times New Roman'] If at the time Industry Comparable Pay Rates[/font]
[font=Times New Roman'] are calculated the Company operates an aircraft type that United[/font]
[font=Times New Roman'] Continental Holdings or Delta Airlines does not[/font]
[font=Times New Roman'] operate, the hourly base pay rates for the most comparable[/font]
[font=Times New Roman'] aircraft type, based on maximum certificated[/font]
[font=Times New Roman'] seating capacity, will be used[/font][font=Arial'].[/font]

[font=Times New Roman']Put another way, if on DOS +30 DL and UA operates EMB 190 or CSJ 900 then the Group 1 rate will be $139.42[/font][font=Arial']. If [/font][font=Times New Roman']either operates the[/font][font=Times New Roman']EMB 190 or CSJ 900 then $139.42 will be ½ of the equation and the other ½ will in all likelihood be one of the rates listed below. Remember, if either DL or UA doesn’t operate the EMB 190 then we use the most comparable aircraft type, based on maximum certificated seating capacity. This will probably be the [/font]A319, B737 500 at UA and the B717 at DL.

Below are the rates so you can calculate the group 1 rate.
UA
A319, B737 500 = $208.62
EMB 195 = $163.88
EMB 190, CRJ 900 = 139.42

DL
B717 = $208.62
EMB 195 = 163.88
EMB 190, CRJ 900 = 139.42



NOT SO FAST, you’re forgetting a few very important details
Unlike the Parity Review in the 1998 Agreement that measured parity several times, parity in the APA CBA measures parity only once. This is problematic because the EMB 195 is locked in to the EMB 190.
Assume when the comparable pay rates are calculated the new AA operates the EMB 195. Also assume that DL and UA operates the EMB 195 (group 1 AC) at a rate of $163.88 for both airlines. We would then ride their coattails and make $163.88 for the EMB 195 correct? WRONG!! Remember from my prior parity update that no group can increase greater than 16.5 %, which for group 1 is $147.72 (provided by APA). Since the EMB 195 is in group 1 we can never be paid industry standard for that EMB 195.
Even worse, DL and UA operate the EMB 190 when we determine parity and we are now locked into $139.42 and then shortly thereafter the new AA takes its first EMB 195 delivery. Sorry folks, we’re locked into the lower EMB 190 rate of $139.42 and will never realize anything close to the DL or UA EMB 195 rate. This will result in the EMB 195 pilots being paid 15% below industry standard. I guess we’re still suffering g from that pesky revenue disadvantage.
I’ll bet APA and the NAC never thought of that one. Well come to think about it, maybe APA did.
Why didn’t anyone ask me? Ask Gary Hummel.

Paul DiOrio

For 5 years DiOrio had no concern about group I rates. Now all of a sudden he cares. Could that be because he thought that with DOH it would only be west pilots that would be flying 190's?

for years east pilots were only concerned with the top of the seniority list. How many times have we had to listen to the whining about WB flying. Now the oreo is worried about the bottom of the list. AFTER he was removed as negotiator.

Besides! Why all the worry about 190's? usapa is going to get you DOH with the APA and the AA pilots will be flying those little planes while the east pilots take over the WB flying right?

Credibility is lacking in this rant.

I have said it before. Karma is a #### and she is coming for the east pilots.

 

[signals]

And your questions will never be answered until they're answered your way. Waste of time.

Mirror-mirror the pot and the kettle.

Meep-meep! 😛 😛 😛

Someone want to quote me so that the Westie Douchie can see it?

 

[dca319]

Now your calling the an AA pilot an idiot, no wonder no likes you.

So should we staple a loser bankrupt airline like AA?

You waffle about as badly as your other cohorts do when they endorse someone. I guess being an opportunist requires you to change sides quickly, right Courtney?

 

[signals]

Follow your infinite wisdom and STFU!

Meep-meep 😛 😛 😛

 

[end_of_alpa]

Poor Jamie.

Once again changing your position. Strong support of ALPA, quit ALPA, strong support of usapa, quit usapa. Guess that makes your a quitter or a fair weather supporter. You going to support APA right before you quit APA?

Did your baby usapa let you down like ALPA did?

It is the same people what did you expect to change?

Actually, I've always been skeptical of unionism in the pilot Aviation community. I've moved on philosophically after all these years. I have NEVER been a supporter of ALPA mainly because the flaws in a national union where too many pilots fall through the cracks and can't be rationalized across the professional pilot spectrum.

My point simply being that unionism should be a business and business is the numbers. Pilots have applied intrinsic values (self worth) to a system that simply requires extrinsic results (we pick things up and put them down). We're not worth what we think we're worth because cultural clashes prevent the "great airline merger" melting pot to homoginize. In short, culture shock is the norm.

It's not really about "poor Jamie", it's about "Poor Compensation". With American, Air Cal, TWA, Reno, US Airways, AWA, Piedmont, PSA, Empire, Allegheny, Mohawk, (and a few others I probably left out) coined with deregulation, 9/11, the "great recession" and now stagnant growth I simply find that there are many more uncommon differences then there are common interests. That is the reality.