Delta Air Lines to Build Heavy Maintenance Facility in Queretaro, Mexico

[WorldTraveler]

It is NO SURPRISE that you two find discussing the basis for salaries in a free market OFF TOPIC. But it doesn't change that the economic basis for labor unions is to obtain pay, compensation, and job protection that is ABOVE NORMAL for the market.

Given that labor unions in the private sector in the United States have absolutely failed at achieving those economic goals - and the US airline industry is no exception to the rule, then it is absolutely appropriate to talk about the market basis for pay - as much as anyone here doesn't want to talk about it.

Whether you want to talk about it or not, the management that has to sign the paychecks for their employees whether covered by a CBA or not know exactly what the market rates for labor and they know exactly the qualifications of the employees who are on their payroll.

So, once again, airline employees most certainly are paid above average compared to the population as a whole for similar levels of education and the market forces that are pushing labor rates down in the US airline industry are the same ones that labor unions have not been able to stop.


There are instead proven factors that increase the rates of pay that employees receive - but you two would rather push a model that not only hasn't achieved those goals but continues to circumvent basic laws of the labor market.

Keep us posted on your progress in achieiving your goals.

 

[Kev3188]

It is NO SURPRISE that you two find discussing the basis for salaries in a free market OFF TOPIC.

Salaries for ACS employees in a thread about DL building a hangar in QRO? Absolutely.

 

[WorldTraveler]

I spoke BOTH about generalities regarding compensation in the airline industry and have provided abundant examples from various areas of the company inculding Tech Ops.
The simple reason why 700 doesn't want to talk about the factors that influence compensation for the vast majority of Americans is because labor unions have managed to obtain salaries far above what market forces would dictate for those qualifications.

As I noted, pilots and mechanics who have licenses and specific technical skills cannot be fit into the same generalities that affect other workers... education alone is not a represntative criteria.
But when Dawg wants to compare DL's salaries for mechanics to UA's, then market factors do enter the discussion, including location.
In so much as it is legally possible for non-Americans to perform work on US aircraft, then it is also relevant to talk about the global market for aviation services.

If labor unions can successfully affected changes that keep more work on US aircraft in US airline-based maintenance facilities, then I will commend their success. But, with the exception of AA who is imposing changes as we write, unions have not been successful in preventing an erosion of pay closer to market levels for comparable work and in keeping work solely in US shops.

And it should come as no surprise that airlines will continue to push toward market based pay while unions will fight the changes yet based on history, they will likely not be successful.

 

[wings396]

I need to step in here WT. So are you saying that its ok for management and CEO compensation to be above what the market can handle, but not the average Joe workers?

 

[WorldTraveler]

nope, didn't say that at all.

I have said on here that there is a major disconnect between the wages of the average joe worker and executive mgmt in the US - and it has seriously destabilizing effects on society.
It is no surprise that the gap between the haves and the have nots in western society is increasing - and it has happened regardless of the political party at the top...

There are shareholder interest groups that push for flattening executive compensation - to provide a more fair society. I'm not sure if that is within the definition of what "fair" would be for Kev but it sure is for me.

It needs to be corrected...but it may or may not be corrected at the same time that market forces continue to push down rates on other workers including the continued effects of globalization that are pulling rates down for American workers in industries that compete on a global basis, as aviation does.

 

[700UW]

 

[Kev3188]

It'll keep going until WT feels he's adequately projected his worldview onto the board.

As long as other posters reject the narrative he's trying to create, it'll continue apace.

On with the show...

 

[BoeingBoy]

Ya know, Kev...facts aren't necessarily the truth - they're an interpretation of the truth. Take outsourcing and talk of facts. By using $$$ to measure outsourcing the amount of work lost is minimized since at least some outsourcing saves money. A dollar spent on outsourcing is not how much work, or how many workers are lost since a dollar in Latin America or Asia buys more maintanence hours/people than in-house.

But you won't find that truth in "the facts"...

Jim

 

[WorldTraveler]

And what measure would you like to use? number of screws turned?

Money is what pays salaries either in the US or in a foreign country. It is absolutely a measure of the value of work done - and thus outsourcing.

Those who don't want to take about the basis of how pay is calculated and yet want to push their agenda that only labor unions can save jobs and increase salaries are the ones who are clueless about the economics of the real world. And as long as they fail to grasp those realities, more and more union jobs will be lost while employees that can demonstrate the real value of their work will prevail.

If there will be "spouting" of the value that unions bring to the table, then there will also be a counterpoint demonstrating what they have not done - and I will use facts to prove my point.

Any of you are welcome to use the same facts that you think prove your point.

Those are the cold, hard facts and the reality. As uncomfortable as it may be.

and anyone of you are welcome to tell me what you are doing to keep American jobs here via unions - and don't forget to show us the measures of success you are using.

 

[Kev3188]

Those who don't want to take about the basis of how pay is calculated and yet want to push their agenda that only labor unions can save jobs and increase salaries are the ones who are clueless about the economics of the real world.

So... the pro labor crowd went from: idealists--> out of step w/reality-->clueless. Can't wait to see where this regression ends up...

Shame it never occurred to you that the ones fighting for change might actually be the ones that *are* tuned into to socio-economic reality.

On with the show.

 

[Kev3188]

Ya know, Kev...facts aren't necessarily the truth - they're an interpretation of the truth.

+1

Who knew one could modify reality to fit the context they need for any given discussion?

 

[Glenn Quagmire]

Outsourcing of maintenance to the people who do that work means any aircraft/engine/part that is not done by the home airline at a home hangar/line station, period.

Saying that 3 aircraft checks equals 1 in outsourcing because you can get 3 done in Mexico for the price of one in the USA is not a real measure based on human toll.

If it fits your narrative, so be it.

I will never forget a VP at our maintenance facility in ATL (NWA) who during a huge overtime bypass arbitration case. When the union side put up a chart showing how much overtime was skewed to certain members in violation of the agreement, he famously said (paraphrased); "That chart means nothing. I can make any chart or graph look the way I want, with any numbers, to make my case".

He lost the case for NWA and the membership all got big overtime bypass award checks.

 

[Glenn Quagmire]

So... the pro labor crowd went from: idealists--> out of step w/reality-->clueless. Can't wait to see where this regression ends up...

Shame it never occurred to you that the ones fighting for change might actually be the ones that *are* tuned into to socio-economic reality.

On with the show.

You forgot that we lack intellegence:

[background=rgb(242, 242, 242)]WorldTraveler: [/background]DL employees are in fact intelligent enough to choose a future that will result in success – more so than NWA’s AMFA-represented mechanics.

 

[WorldTraveler]

but the simple fact is that outsourcing contracts ARE measured in money - with US dollars being the predominant global currency. I have never said that the value of the work LOST to US workers is the same as what a company pays to outsource... it clearly is. Unions might want to value the work that has been lost, but the company only cares about doing so in order to satisfy a requirement of its CBA, if one exists.

Yes, Kev and Glenn,
failing to understand the basis of how global exchange of services is rendered is pretty basic. I have said you and others are intelligent and articulate. Clueless represents the lack of understanding regarding the basis of exchange in a global society.
But I've played with enough of you to know that is far easier for you to believe you are being beat up and insulted than recognize that your ideas are incorrect.
There is a difference between who you are as people and the ideas you stand for.



You (collectively) can argue for change... but if you continue to lose ground, I have a hard time seeing that your efforts are generating any value. Idealism is great - but it makes no difference to the world if it doesn't translate into reality.

What other show would you like to go to?

 

[Kev3188]

You forgot that we lack intellegence:

I sure did. My bad...

But I've played with enough of you to know that is far easier for you to believe you are being beat up and insulted than recognize that your ideas are incorrect.

Your believing they're incorrect does not make it so.

Should we all buy into the idea of supplication towards corporate America as you have?

There is a difference between who you are as people and the ideas you stand for.

Your condescending tone is duly noted. Next time don't forget to add the head pat...

You (collectively) can argue for change... but if you continue to lose ground, I have a hard time seeing that your efforts are generating any value.

Of course you don't; it doesn't square with your belief system.

Idealism is great - but it makes no difference to the world if it doesn't translate into reality.

...And if you just give up/in, nothing will change, either....


Carry on...