Delta Air Lines to Build Heavy Maintenance Facility in Queretaro, Mexico

[WorldTraveler]

If Dawg is truly PMDL, then his inability to grasp the culture of Delta is all the more amazing. I'm not about to say that every original-hire Delta employee understands and supports Delta's non-union, southern-based culture, but I have alot more sympathy for someone who was "dragged into" DL via a merger or acquisition than I do for someone who should have known the highly distinctive culture that has been a hallmark of Delta for decades. I am fully aware that many people don't and won't like DL's culture, but it is obvious that because they have succeeded, their culture is not going anywhere. Attempts to try to change the culture will undoubtedly be met with failure.

No, the distilled version is "bloom where you are planted" or perhaps "transplanted."

Not everyone chose to work for Delta; perhaps the number of true PMDL employees is maybe 40% or less given the NW and WA mergers and PA asset acquisition; not sure there are any DL employees still at it from the NE era or before.
Tens of thousands of employees who were represented by unions at other companies have chosen to no longer seek union representation as DL employees. The fact that true original hire PMDL employees are probably a minority - esp. among full-time employees speaks volumes about the fact that many people do not see labor representation as solving the problems that confront Delta employees.

The fact that labor representation in the private sector has probably never been lower and even thousands of government employees are dropping their union representation when given the chance to do so echoes the very same sentiment.

DL has carefully chosen its merger partners and asset acqusitions based on an assessment of its ability to retain its culture. That should come as no surprise to anyone.

You can argue til the cows come home about whether DL culture is good or not - but you (collectively) cannot argue that DL's culture doesn't work in providing a stable, financially successful company that has provided more job security, more growth, and wages and benefits as good as or better than most other airline companies in the US.

DL didn't get to where it is by sitting on its laurels or by being content with mediocrity and DL, like any company, is only as good as its employees and their commitment to the company and its ideals. No one is arguing that is the road you or any other DL employee should pursue.

Work within the system that exists and which has been shown to be successful instead of attempting to remake it into something that hasn't resulted in similar levels of success as DL's system.

Intelligent, articulate, passionate people like you, Kev and Dawg, DO get ahead at Delta and do take positions of leadership if they choose to do so. If they don't choose leadership, they obtain at the very least an employment experience that is as good or better than many other American workers, esp. those in the turbulent US airline industry.

 

[Kev3188]

"If you don't like it, leave."

 

[WorldTraveler]

"If you don't like it, leave."

only if you feel the need to... or instead learn to adapt, survive, and THRIVE.

Adaptation and success despite a situation that is not what one would have chosen is what is necessary in a fast-changing world.

You are an incredible person, Kevin. I have no wish but to see you reach the absolute limits of your potential and then some. You have much to offer the world.

 

[Kev3188]

"Know your place."

 

[WorldTraveler]

Yes, if you believe like I do that your place is as a leader and shaper.

 

[TDR1502C]

Kev, ever think about moseying over to a job in the defense industry? Government money and highly unionized, a lot of it IAM.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Kev could easily and very successfully take a position in union leadership as well.

He could stay right where he is at Delta... but I know he has enormous potential - which doesn't have to be used just at work. He could channel his energies into the community or politics.

I would do whatever I could to help Kevin achieve what he wants - and I don't think I am alone.

The first step is for Kevin and anyone else outside of the pilots that supports labor representation to decide whether they will achieve what they want at Delta.
Delta is a great company in its own right... but it is not for everyone and Kevin like alot of other people were dragged into DL in a transaction over which they had no control.
I don't think Kev or others w/ a union agenda will achieve what they want. Rather than trying to force something that probably, no likely won't work, it seems far better to pursue something that allows those people to use their talents where they will succeed.

I support success... and I support those who succeed in whatever environment that may be.

 

[signals]

Some people see things one-sided. Sometimes you actually have to look beyond the box.(see signature).

I've worked non-union shops. My experience-raises are far and in between, work gets harder, termination can occur at any screw-up, etc., so basically a negative experience. I've been union since 1983...then came the ATCs...and found that unions had to settle, and blah blah blah. I know where I stand with my union and am ok with it.

The thing is that talking to non-union employees, they are very happy with their wages and benefits, and have no fear that their job will be abolished. Perhaps it takes a certain person to be ok without unions. Me? I wouldn't make it! But you can't accuse Delta of intimidating employees, if they've been there for years they like, er, ah, love their jobs.

Yes, I am
V V V V V

 

[Glenn Quagmire]

DL employees are in fact intelligent enough to choose a future that will result in success – more so than NWA’s AMFA-represented mechanics.

Really?

Most of made a choice to not vote in favor of terms that would have eliminated 53% of the mechanic workforce (including me).

Those that would have been left would have had scope, benefits, and pay, gutted. Richard knew that. I chose, as did many others, to take my marketable skills elsewhere.

It was the right choice. The only people That Delta was left with were the ones who would never have been hired by anyone else. They were the bottom of the barrel at NWA. That is why they crossed a picket line and bowed to the master.

I wonder why you no longer rate full time employment with Delta? Why do you sit on the sidelines and lead cheers while the ones on the team play the game?

Are you not intelllegent enough to have chosen a future of success with Delta?

 

[Kev3188]

I would do whatever I could to help Kevin achieve what he wants...

Pass. The last thing we need is someone that constantly tries to rationalize why it's okay to be a quitter.

I don't think Kev or others w/ a union agenda will achieve what they want. Rather than trying to force something that probably, no likely won't work, it seems far better to pursue something that allows those people to use their talents where they will succeed.

The "agenda" is an equality in the workplace, and fairness for all. Want to stand against that? Be my guest.

Frankly, I couldn't care less how you-or any other company acolyte- rate our chances.

I support success... and I support those who succeed in whatever environment that may be.

No, you support those whose definition of "success" matches your own narrow view.

I support people who fight for what they believe, not those that wilt under pressure and slink quietly off into the corner.

Really?

Apparently, employees are only "intelligent" when they are fully indoctrinated...

If only you guys had, you know, "known your place." (sarcasm, of course)

 

[topDawg]

See the link above to MIT’s airline data project. It explicitly uses airline provided data to the US government to calculate outsourcing percentages. If you want to argue with that data, then there is likely no amount of data that will convince you of the truth if it runs counter to what you want to believe. The issue of outsourcing is quantifiable; either there are facts to support your position or there are not.
The same thing applies to insourcing. If you are convinced that someone else – UA – does more insourcing than DL, then find the facts to support it. If they aren’t there, you are wrong. It is a factual item and not an opinion – it is that simple.I don't need to look at the date dude. You post it but want to leave stuff out. "well Delta doesn't do seat mods.....but its a one time thing" all horse crap. All work should be done by Delta Air Lines mainlines employees period.

DL’s goal is not and never has been to preserve FUTURE jobs. which isn't good That is what unions have tried to do and have failed miserably. lol. Thats cute....if a judge forced Delta to bring all its ramp and MX work in house....delta failed miserably yes? DL’s goal plain and simple is to protect the jobs of existing employees and on that basis they have done a better job than any other network airline. That is an objective fact. Continuing to push for a standard that unions have not attained and which DL does not even see as a goal is one reason why you have failed to convince anyone of the validity of your position.

“somewhat stupid employees”…. Ok, let it out… just let it rip. They aren’t just somewhat stupid in your mind. I KNEW we would get to this point eventually and I’m said glad you finally admitted it. DL employees are in fact intelligent enough to choose a future that will result in success – more so than NWA’s AMFA-represented mechanics. some what stupid in that they expect for Delta to give them everything they had 30 years ago back at some point.

For four years, this whole debate has been a cultural issue more than anything else. There are a relatively small handful of PMNW people who have tried to perpetuate the pro-union NW mindset which was obviously incompatible with DL’s culture from the minute the merger was announced – and for years before if you believe that the DL-NW merger was in the cards well before the 2008 announcement. Yep, DL has chosen not to reopen former NW hangars – the ones that were shuttered by NW’s lockout of AMFA. You act surprised – really bitter – that DL isn’t going to engage in a game that allows you to play. You seem to forget – or be unable to connect – with the reality that the northern US has lost millions of jobs because US companies including the steel and auto industries - have moved jobs away from locations where their business has been negatively impacted by labor unions for decades. Companies control where they hire people. Foreign automakers who are building plants are doing it in the US south – and the reason should come as no surprise to you. ok....you just called me Northwest again....are you kidding me dude? and fine....I hear a hangar in AFW and an ex Delta hangar in TPA are open. (oh and BTW....I only listed two NW hangars. ORD/LAX/DWH/TPA and some MSP bays are all Delta Air Lines)

NW mgmt and its board apparently believed it was no longer worth fighting with labor so decided to sell out – with very few strings attached – to a company that had and still has a much better relationship with labor than other airlines. In a free market, resources are deployed where there is the greatest expected return on the investment. Without picking sides, it is absolutely accurate to say that labor disputes in the airline industry have destroyed enormous amounts of capital.

BTW, DL did not take over any of Pan Am’s maintenance facilities, IIRC.
ummm? k I don't think I said they did?
Holding onto a labor-mgmt system that hasn’t worked but which also is not even desired by many Americans shows why the labor movement is broken – and faces even further, more severe erosion as it is attacked in the public worker sector.
Belittling your coworkers who don’t agree with your viewpoints is a guarantee that you will be marginalized and your objectives will not be achieved – assuming you are actually trying to advance the union cause and are not here just to bellyache.
DL’s maintenance facilities in ATL are busy. And they do more work in-house than UA. Despite these great scope provisions which UA mechanics have, UA sends more of their work out than DL does.

Quit denying what works while touting something that clearly doesn’t – you shouldn’t be surprised that your coworkers at DL are smart enough to know the difference.lol....I'm telling you right now....IF/When TechOps goes Union expect me to be almost mean with the amount of crap I give you.

 

[topDawg]

If Dawg is truly PMDL, then his inability to grasp the culture of Delta is all the more amazing. I'm not about to say that every original-hire Delta employee understands and supports Delta's non-union, southern-based culture, but I have alot more sympathy for someone who was "dragged into" DL via a merger or acquisition than I do for someone who should have known the highly distinctive culture that has been a hallmark of Delta for decades. I am fully aware that many people don't and won't like DL's culture, but it is obvious that because they have succeeded, their culture is not going anywhere. Attempts to try to change the culture will undoubtedly be met with failure.
Bro I'm 3rd generation Delta. I promise...I know a hell of a lot more about the company than you do. They day we get a real CEO like Mr Woolman I'll happily shut up. Till then....Change is needed.

No, the distilled version is "bloom where you are planted" or perhaps "transplanted."

Not everyone chose to work for Delta; perhaps the number of true PMDL employees is maybe 40% or less given the NW and WA mergers and PA asset acquisition; not sure there are any DL employees still at it from the NE era or before.
Tens of thousands of employees who were represented by unions at other companies have chosen to no longer seek union representation as DL employees. The fact that true original hire PMDL employees are probably a minority - esp. among full-time employees speaks volumes about the fact that many people do not see labor representation as solving the problems that confront Delta employees.But the only time a union was really needed was after 7.5....thats what your not getting. Delta has had an excuse to make people think they will get everything back. Oh the economy, 9/11, BK, merger, economy, fuel......but sadly for them, they are quickly running out of excuses when the company makes 1-2B in two years.

The fact that labor representation in the private sector has probably never been lower and even thousands of government employees are dropping their union representation when given the chance to do so echoes the very same sentiment.
mainly because...legally....a union can't do much these days. They can't walk, they are helpless in BK....and course bean counters like you tell employees to shut up and be happy or leave.
DL has carefully chosen its merger partners and asset acqusitions based on an assessment of its ability to retain its culture. That should come as no surprise to anyone. Culture...cute. Me thinks you wouldn't know real delta culture if it jumped up and kicked you right in the butt. Don't feel bad though.....most of your type can't figure it out.

You can argue til the cows come home about whether DL culture is good or not - but you (collectively) cannot argue that DL's culture doesn't work in providing a stable, financially successful company that has provided more job security, more growth, and wages and benefits as good as or better than most other airline companies in the US. I ave zero job security, what growth? Delta has been getting smaller for years, and most of my peers have better wages or benefits.

DL didn't get to where it is by sitting on its laurels or by being content with mediocrity and DL, like any company, is only as good as its employees and their commitment to the company and its ideals. No one is arguing that is the road you or any other DL employee should pursue.

Work within the system that exists and which has been shown to be successful instead of attempting to remake it into something that hasn't resulted in similar levels of success as DL's system. shut up and be happy.

Intelligent, articulate, passionate people like you, Kev and Dawg, DO get ahead at Delta and do take positions of leadership if they choose to do so. If they don't choose leadership, they obtain at the very least an employment experience that is as good or better than many other American workers, esp. those in the turbulent US airline industry. I'm to labor friendly to be in leadership at Delta.... Oh and can do simple math.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Thanks to you each of you for your responses…
This would be a really good time for me to say that I know EXACTLY about 7.5, Dawg, because I was in ACS at the time. In fact, I was given a pink slip but saw the error in the process that local DL mgmt used to determine who stayed and who went, so I picked up the phone and went one step below the CEO – and was back on the job the next day. Not necessarily where I wanted, but I knew the rules, I knew how to play on the terms DL dictated, and I knew how to call the company on its own error.
I then went on to work for over a decade – more than two decades in total at DL- in mgmt where I hired, fired, and did countless performance evaluations. I know EXACTLY what protections DL contract and non-contract employees have.
I was intelligent enough to leave because I wanted to do something else with my life – and I recognized, like you Glenn, that DL couldn’t deliver what I wanted so I took what the company offered and left.
My story is hardly isolated. I know few people who have gone for a career at DL w/o a run-in with the company over HR issues. But I can say without a shadow of the doubt that the vast majority of those issues are resolved far more fairly than any union ever could obtain.
… which brings us once again to the question which I will keep pounding home and that is “what proof do you have that DL employees as a whole fair any worse than those at other airlines other than to point out an intangible such as “control” which clearly doesn’t translate into the salary and benefits that ANY employee actually wants.
Dawg,
You can point out all day long how much better UA mechanics do but you have yet to show me the cost of living adjustments that show why DL employees – heavily based in the south and in lower cost of living cities than their peers at other airlines – are really not as bad off as you make them out to be. FWIW, it also explains why AA maintenance – heavily concentrated in TX and OK – is not paid at the same levels as UA.
Those are market forces and what I have read for months from you and others is how DL is short-changing its employees yet you choose to factor in those elements like location – that just as in real estate – are huge determinants of salary. You argue that DL chooses not to expand maintenance outside of the south to avoid unions while failing to note that DL could not begin to maintain the same cost levels if it had to build maintenance facilities outside of the US SE – and your own peers here have said so as well.
I would love to see DL pick up another maintenance location or two somewhere in the US – perhaps some that NW has idled –but I am as certain as the day is long that it won’t happen unless DL can be assured long-term that it effectively compete in the global marketplace – which is the marketplace for aviation maintenance.
If you are 3[sup]rd[/sup] generation DL, then I still have to ask you why you have expectations that you would be a unionized employee in the job you are doing? Were you not aware that DL employees have consistently chosen not to be represented by unions, despite acquiring multiple carriers that were much more heavily unionized than DL was? Did your mother or father never tell you that DL uses flexibility throughout the company that unions at other airlines don’t allow – and they have been doing so for decades?
If you have been around DL any length of time, then you should know that your expectation is not valid that DL will add jobs doing functions which it has already determined cannot be done profitably for the company.
You might also want to acknowledge that UA mechanics, as well paid as they may be, work for the same company that still pays its pilots more than 25% less than DL pilots using the BK contract which UA imposed years ago. The likelihood that UA will increase pay for its other employees is slim to none until they raise pilot salaries- and in order to do that, they will have to spend upwards of a half billion dollars per year. In case you missed it, UA reported LESS revenue per flown seat mile in August than from a year before.... UA's revenue is shrinking while their employees are demanding higher pay - not exactly a formula for success, esp. given that UA's financial performance is well below your employers this year.

What you and others refuse to acknowledge is that you participate in the JOB MARKET. All of you do jobs and have skills and qualifications that can very easily be compared with other people elsewhere in the US for people w/ the same skill set as well as elsewhere in the same location but in related jobs that use the same skill sets.
The simple fact is that airline employees have enjoyed well above average salaries for decades because of the power of unions and now market forces are eroding that advantage because unions are not able to hold back market forces.

http://www.bls.gov/e...p_chart_001.htm
Note that this chart does not account for specialized, license specific jobs such as mechanics and pilots but it does show that many airline employees continue to earn wages above the levels they would earn in the open market.
Kev,
The promise of America is liberty and justice for all – not pay equality. That’s socialism and it doesn’t even work in countries that are truly socialist – because the free market ALWAYS manages to create a secondary labor market. The job market is based on people performing a job that others value high enough to pay them to do – and if the qualifications and uniqueness of those skills are at a premium to the market, you (collective) earn a salary at a premium to the market.
The US stands for equality of opportunity – of which you and others have had your fair share.
Or perhaps you would like to tell us what equality means and how DL is not attaining to it - and better yet how a union can be shown to do a better job of attaining it in the airline industry.
Nowhere – but nowhere – have I ever said that success is defined by the measures I use to define it. I have acknowledged that success uses the measures that each of us use.
Hopefully you won’t mind if I and others measure you against the goals you have defined – achieving labor representation.
Quitting is failing to develop the skills necessary to ensure success in the marketplace of work. Pragmatism is being willing to recognize that your goals can’t be achieved the way you thought they would… and adapting to the environment. Nowhere does pragmatism mean giving up on your goals.
Idealism – which you have in spades is commendable… but if you fail to achieve your goals, you are not much more than a dreamer.
Read again the quote I posted earlier.
The presidents judged by history to be the greatest — Lincoln, the Roosevelts, Washington, Jefferson, Reagan and Wilson — were all idealists. They had a vision of America and of the world. But these men were also pragmatic politicians, men who judged that winning what’s possible is preferable to losing in fealty to an impossible dream.
In their time, each of them was denounced by their closest supporters for betraying their ideals. But they changed America.

 

[700UW]

 

[Kev3188]

Kev,
The promise of America is liberty and justice for all – not pay equality.

I've covered the main drivers for this campaign already. Either you have comprehension issues (doubtful), or glossed right over them (likely). I'm not covering it again.

Indeed.