Delta Doesn't Care About Small Businessmen

[Lynne]

I'm a small businessman and Februrary 20 I bought tickets to New York via Detroit for 3/10 returning 3/11 so that I could buy rugs for my business.
I live in Evansville IN and can only get to about 3 cities fom here on Delta. About 10 minutes after we took off from Evansville IN, the pilot announced problems with the de-icing system and diverted the plane to Memphis.(Instead of returning to Evansville, which to me sounds like the logical course of action) When we got to Memphis the pilot announced that we couldn't land in Memphis and were being diverted to Little Rock Arkansas. In Little Rock everyone on the plane was given a $200 voucher for our "inconvenience". Because the plane was diverted, Delta couldn't get me on any connections to LaGuardia so they booked me on another flight with American, which when I got to the gate was oversold. I went back to the Delta counter and waited(along with many other people that Delta reps had also booked on oversold flights) I finally got Delta to book me on another flight, this time back to Evansville, since I had already missed all my meetings in New York, on American Airlines (through Chicago since Delta has no direct flight Little Rock-Evansville), 5 hours later.
Making a long story short, Delta, because of mechanical problems noticed 10 MINUTES OUT of our original departure point, made me miss an entire trip since they couldn't get me to my destination until WELL after my meetings were over and after I was told that Delta would give me a free ticket, which I didn't need to go to some exotic location, I just needed it to get to New York next week, before my wifes surgery on Thursday so that I have time to choose my merchandise and have it get to my little store before the end of March.
My wife got onto Delta.com this morning to make sure this EXACT flight was still available and it was. Since Delta couldn't get me to New York when they were supposed to, I assumed they would honor this itinerary and get me there next week.
Instead, NOW the ticket(since I had to buy it 4 days out instead of 21 days out) was $786 instead of $468.
When my wife called Delta this morning, she spoke to Sandy, at the 800-707-5177 number where they are supposed to help you in booking another flight, with the free ticket I was promised. This number is on the NEED HELP card that Delta gives you when they(not the weather) are at fault for screwing up your travel plans. Sandy told me that even though I spent the ENTIRE DAY in Little Rock and Delta was directly responsible for not getting me to New York, I had $400 in vouchers and THAT was the extent of what Delta would do for me. Apparently, THAT is what Delta thinks a Small Business owners time is worth. My wife didn't argue too much with this person since obviously Sandy could not or would not help her rebook my flight.
Sandy connected my wife with Chelsea who was supposed to be a Customer Service Supervisor. My wife was told by Chelsea that since the ticket price was more expensive, they wold not give me a ticket to New York on the same flight without me paying more. Chelsea told my wife, "well, we're not making you pay a change fee." Deltas position is, "You use your $400 in vouchers you have, ($200 for the inconvenience,$200 for giving up your seat on an overbooked American Airlines flight we booked you on), plus you use the $234 credit we're giving you for not using the return flight(3/11 from LGA-EVV)that comes to $634 and you still owe Delta $152.00 to get to LaGuardia next week.
Obviously, Delta is only used to dealing with BIG companies who do LOTS of flying, because they sure don't understand that small, solely owned businesses CANNOT afford to pay more for tickets because Delta has mechanical problems.

 

[metopower]

I'm a small businessman and Februrary 20 I bought tickets to New York via Detroit for 3/10 returning 3/11 so that I could buy rugs for my business.
I live in Evansville IN and can only get to about 3 cities fom here on Delta. About 10 minutes after we took off from Evansville IN, the pilot announced problems with the de-icing system and diverted the plane to Memphis.(Instead of returning to Evansville, which to me sounds like the logical course of action) When we got to Memphis the pilot announced that we couldn't land in Memphis and were being diverted to Little Rock Arkansas. In Little Rock everyone on the plane was given a $200 voucher for our "inconvenience". Because the plane was diverted, Delta couldn't get me on any connections to LaGuardia so they booked me on another flight with American, which when I got to the gate was oversold. I went back to the Delta counter and waited(along with many other people that Delta reps had also booked on oversold flights) I finally got Delta to book me on another flight, this time back to Evansville, since I had already missed all my meetings in New York, on American Airlines (through Chicago since Delta has no direct flight Little Rock-Evansville), 5 hours later.
Making a long story short, Delta, because of mechanical problems noticed 10 MINUTES OUT of our original departure point, made me miss an entire trip since they couldn't get me to my destination until WELL after my meetings were over and after I was told that Delta would give me a free ticket, which I didn't need to go to some exotic location, I just needed it to get to New York next week, before my wifes surgery on Thursday so that I have time to choose my merchandise and have it get to my little store before the end of March.
My wife got onto Delta.com this morning to make sure this EXACT flight was still available and it was. Since Delta couldn't get me to New York when they were supposed to, I assumed they would honor this itinerary and get me there next week.
Instead, NOW the ticket(since I had to buy it 4 days out instead of 21 days out) was $786 instead of $468.
When my wife called Delta this morning, she spoke to Sandy, at the 800-707-5177 number where they are supposed to help you in booking another flight, with the free ticket I was promised. This number is on the NEED HELP card that Delta gives you when they(not the weather) are at fault for screwing up your travel plans. Sandy told me that even though I spent the ENTIRE DAY in Little Rock and Delta was directly responsible for not getting me to New York, I had $400 in vouchers and THAT was the extent of what Delta would do for me. Apparently, THAT is what Delta thinks a Small Business owners time is worth. My wife didn't argue too much with this person since obviously Sandy could not or would not help her rebook my flight.
Sandy connected my wife with Chelsea who was supposed to be a Customer Service Supervisor. My wife was told by Chelsea that since the ticket price was more expensive, they wold not give me a ticket to New York on the same flight without me paying more. Chelsea told my wife, "well, we're not making you pay a change fee." Deltas position is, "You use your $400 in vouchers you have, ($200 for the inconvenience,$200 for giving up your seat on an overbooked American Airlines flight we booked you on), plus you use the $234 credit we're giving you for not using the return flight(3/11 from LGA-EVV)that comes to $634 and you still owe Delta $152.00 to get to LaGuardia next week.
Obviously, Delta is only used to dealing with BIG companies who do LOTS of flying, because they sure don't understand that small, solely owned businesses CANNOT afford to pay more for tickets because Delta has mechanical problems.

I am sorry which Delta connection carrier were you on?

 

[WorldTraveler]

You migth take a look at the conditions of carriage on Delta or any other airline in the world - and while you are at it, any transportation enterprise as well.

Courts have consistently sided with the transportation enterprises as long as they have disclosed their limitations of liability.

The bottom line is that they ALL state that they are not responsible for any consequential damages as a result of their failure to carry you or your belongings on a timely basis. That is simply the nature of transportation.

And given that they only way a company could take responsibiility for the consequential damages of its passengers would be to know what those risks would be in advance and decide whether to accept them.

The reason why they did not return to the original station may have had to do with the fact that there are other places that had the potential to fix the problem far better than your original boarding point. The fact that MEM was not available when you arrived was apparently not known at the time they decided to proceed to that station.

I'm sorry you were inconvencied but you are hardly the first person - and you won't be the last.

Understanding the riesponsibilities of all parties involved will make it easier for you to reframe your expectations.

 

[700UW]

WT,

Are you seriously defending DL?

The Customer in this case is right, bottom line you eat it and get him the ticket.

 

[Kev3188]

I agree; there's enough extenuating circumstances here that you just "make it right," and be done with it.

 

[WorldTraveler]

WT,

Are you seriously defending DL?

The Customer in this case is right, bottom line you eat it and get him the ticket.

I'm not defending Delta or any airline. You could substitute any airline in the world and throw in the subway systems to boot and get the same answer.

TRANSPORTATION ENTERPRISES DO NOT ASSUME RESPONSIBILITY FOR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGE DUE TO THEIR DELAYS OR FAILURE TO MAINTAIN THEIR SCHEDULE. Once again, courts have consistently sided with the transportation companies in these types of lawsuits or even complaints,

If the customer said at the very first point of diversion that he could not go on and wanted to return to the place of origin, there might have been the basis for an involuntary refund.

Attempting to turn this type of issue into a loyalty contest between one company or another shows your lack of understanding of the airline and even broader transportation industry.

Here is Delta's condition of carriage - and it looks very much like every other western based US airline's.

http://www.delta.com/legal/conditions_of_contract/index.jsp

note particularly number 9

Conditions of Contract
As used in this contract "ticket" means this passenger ticket and baggage check, of which these conditions and the notices form part, "carriage" is equivalent to "transportation", "carrier" means all air carriers that carry or undertake to carry the passenger or his or her baggage hereunder or perform any other service incidental to such air carriage. "Warsaw Convention" means the Convention for the Unification of Certain Rules Relating to International Carriage by Air signed at Warsaw, 12th October 1929, or that Convention as amended at The Hague, 28th September 1955, whichever may be applicable.
Carriage hereunder is subject to the rules and limitations relating to liability established by the Warsaw Convention unless such carriage is not "International Carriage" as defined by that Convention.
To the extent not to conflict with the foregoing, carriage and other services performed by each carrier are subject to: (I) provisions contained in this ticket, (II) applicable tariffs, (III) carrier's conditions of carriage and related regulations which are made part hereof (and are available on application at the offices of the carrier), except in transportation between a place in the United States or Canada and any place outside thereof to which tariffs in force in those countries.
Carrier's name may be abbreviated in the ticket, the full name and its abbreviation being set forth in carrier's tariffs, conditions of carriage, regulations or timetables: carrier's address shall be the airport of departure shown opposite the first abbreviation of the carrier's name in the ticket; the agreed stopping places set forth on the passenger's route; carriage to be performed hereunder by several successive carriers is regarded as a single operation.
An air carrier issuing a ticket for carriage over the lines of another air carrier does so only as its agent.
Any exclusion of limitation of liability of carrier shall apply to be and be for the benefit of agents, servants, and representatives of carrier and any person whose aircraft is used by carrier for carriage and its agents, servants and representatives.
Checked baggage will be delivered to bearer of the baggage check. In case of damage to baggage moving in international transportation, complaint must be made in writing to carrier immediately after discovery of damage and, at the latest, 7 days from receipt; in case of delay, complaint must be made within 21 days from date baggage was delivered. See tariffs or conditions of carriage regarding non-international transportation.
This ticket is good for carriage for one year from date of issue, except as otherwise provided in this ticket, in carrier's tariffs, conditions of carriage, or related regulations. The fare for carriage hereunder is subject to change prior to commencement of carriage. Carrier may refuse transportation if the applicable fare has not been paid.
Carrier undertakes to use its best efforts to carry the passenger and baggage with reasonable dispatch. Times shown in timetable or elsewhere are not guaranteed and form no part of this contract. Carrier may without notice substitute alternate carriers or aircraft, and may alter or omit stopping places shown on the ticket in case of necessity. Schedules are subject to change without notice. Carrier assumes no responsibility for making connections.
Passenger shall comply with Government travel requirements, present exit, entry and other required documents and arrive at airport by time fixed by carrier or, if no time is fixed, early enough to complete departure procedures.
No agent, servant or representative of carrier has authority to alter, modify or waive any provision of this contract.
Carrier reserves the right to refuse carriage to any person who has acquired a ticket in violation of applicable law or carrier's tariffs, rules or regulations.


Delta as do all US airlines state what they intend to do in the event of a service interruption. These do differ by carrier but they don't come anywhere near what this customer wants - which is essentially to buy the milk, tell you it is spoiled, and then ask you to refund it after drinking the entire jug right in front of you.


12. Identifying the services Delta provides to mitigate passenger inconveniences resulting from cancellations and misconnects.
In order to mitigate inconveniences to you resulting from cancellations and misconnects, we will:

Attempt to contact you, via contact information provided in your reservation, about cancellations when the event is known at least two hours before departure, averting a frustrating trip to the airport.
Provide meal allowances and hotel accommodations at Delta contracted facilities, based on availability, if you are inconvenienced overnight while away from your home or destination due to a delay, misconnect or cancellation within Delta's control. If accommodations are unavailable, we will compensate you with a transportation credit commensurate in value with the contracted hotel rate.

http://www.delta.com/legal/delta_customer_commitment/index.jsp

sometimes you need to be told you are wrong and that is what I am telling this person. It has nothing to do with small business or individual leisure traveler.
Given that there are a billion passengers a year who fly by air by the US carriers alone, if they didn't limit their liability, they would be paying out billions of dollars to overcome the failures of the system.
Even the best airlines have DOT on-time stats of 85% on an annual basis; if 15% of those passengers claimed consequential damages for the delays they incurrred, the industry would ALL be broke.
By fiercely defending their own legality, airlines protect their own employees who would once again bear the brunt of another cost without an associated increase in revenue.

Good customer service and responsive replies to service irregularities should be a part of any company; allowing a customer to use the services they buy and then ask for a refund is unsustainable in any industry.

The customer here could have asked for a refund plain and simple for the trip he could not make due to DL's delays and then treat his subsequent flight as a separate transaction. Delta has every right to charge the fare for the replacement trip - at the passenger's chosen time. If he continued on to NYC on the original ticket, he would not be expected to pay DL any more.

 

[Veritas]

WT,

Are you seriously defending DL?

The Customer in this case is right, bottom line you eat it and get him the ticket.

What else would you expect from Delta's biggest apologist on the web?

Oops, I almost forgot, WT is the truth teller.

 

[WorldTraveler]

What else would you expect from Delta's biggest apologist on the web?

Oops, I almost forgot, WT is the truth teller.

once again, attempting to turn the discussion into an attack on someone who tells the truth about the process - just because it involves DL - demonstrates that you either don't understand the issue or would rather throw stones than admit that someone else is right.

The simple reality is that the airline industry is not built around the notion that passengers can jump into the system until they run into problems, return to their starting point at no cost, and then restart when it is convenient for them - which is essentially what this passenger was asking to do.

If airlines had to accommodate such requests, airline employees would be working 10X harder to pull people out of the system whenever the least little hiccup occurs - and getting no revenue for their efforts.
If the passenger wanted to return home, he could obtain an involuntary refund for the portion of the trip he did not fly.
He cannot expect and the airlines are all legally on solid ground to argue that if he wants to pull out of the system because of a delay, then he cannot reschedule the trip at a later time of his choosing and expect to use the ticket he originally purchased.
If he continues with the trip as originally booked, the airline (whatever name you want to insert will result in the same answer) will provide the transportation to get him to the final destination.
The "soft compensation" that airlines provide to "soften" the blow of the inconvenience may differ between airlines but the core principle of how compensation and refunds are handled for transportation and interruptions is nearly identical at virtually all airlines worldwide.

In addition, other public transportation systems work the same way.

Save this post and you can copy it into any other discussion regarding any other airline - the answer would be the same; we see these types of threads on various discussion forums and the answer is the same - because that is truth telling....

 

[Dart Airlines]

I agree, it's ridiculous. and with the merger with NWA they lost some service quality, but perhaps it was just unlucky that this happened to you, I do feel sorry for you, if it helps.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Today's flight schedule from EVV to DTW has all 3 flights operated by Pinnacle which so far as I know (insiders correct me if I'm wrong) hasn't had any Delta imposed operational changes - so whether DL merged with NW does not appear to have any influence over this situation from the choice of diversion. The decision to divert to MEM seemed reasonable given that it appeared to be Pinnacle. I don't know but am guessing that the LIT station is predominantly pre-merger DL operated so the error in booking the passenger on an overbooked flight on AA - or not waiting for a computer confirmation of a successful confirmation - could have been DL people's.

My point is not to turn this into a PMDL vs PMNW argument other than to say that the statement that service has gone down since the merger doesn't appear to have any context or relevance. Operationally this was essentially a PMNW regional carrier flying on PMNW's network.

I don't know what NW customer service would have done but the airline industry has well established that when you choose to interrupt a journey and return to your point of origin, you are not entitled to the same compensation that you would receive if you stayed with the original itinerary and were delayed enroute.

Most importantly, if you choose to return to your original departure point, you do not have the choice to restart the trip at another time of your choosing using the same fare that you paid the first time around.

I am sorry the customer was inconvencied as well.. but that doesn't change the fact that he was attempting to do something that is contrary to what the entire US airline industry has established as standard procedure... and there are indeed procedures if he stuck w/ the delayed flight or decided to return to his point of origin and cancel the entire trip.

Airline industry - and most of the transportation industry as well - policies are no different than buying a car, finding a defect at 10K miles and then wanting to take it back for a refund. It just doesn't work that way. Sure, you can go to the lemon law route, but you have to establish that you actually have a lemon - and that doesn't happen the first time you have a problem. Similiarly, you would be denied if you ordered a cable TV package, watched it for 10 days and then cancelled asking for a full refund (unless there was a no charge trial period).

It is neither insensitive or defensive to recognize the basic policies of the industry that are at play here and why Delta - or any other airline responded the way they did.

 

[eolesen]

Something doesn't add up in your version of their obligations...

there are indeed procedures if he stuck w/ the delayed flight or decided to return to his point of origin and cancel the entire trip.

That's what the customer did....

He was booked to fly EVV-DTW-NYC, and then they returned him to his original point of origin. He didn't change his itinerary -- DL did.

If there are procedures for returning to the point of origin, WHY aren't they refunding the entire first ticket?

Regardless of the fact he boarded the first flight, it never arrived at the expected connect point.

Looks to me like they're obligated by their own policy to issue an involuntary refund.

 

[FWAAA]

It's difficult to tell from the OP whether he broke down and bought the expensive ticket so that he could buy some rugs for his store or whether he refused to lay out the extra $152 or so. I would hope that a businessman would realize that paying now to keep the business running would preserve the option to complain to DL and recover the overcharge.

Everytime AA has messed up my travel plans so that the trip would be in vain, AA and I have agreed to invoke the "trip in vain" policies that have provided for my prompt return to city of origin and an option for a full refund or rescheduling the trip in the future. Fortunately for me, perhaps becuase of elite status resulting from persistent loyalty, AA has never tried to add/collect for any fare differences for the rescheduled trip. Perhaps Delta offers similar accommodation for its frequent fliers - I don't know.

 

[WorldTraveler]

I don't disagree that DL could have simply thrown in a few more transportation credits - because those are pretty "soft" in how much can be handed out... but my point is simply that DL had no OBLIGATION to allow the passenger to return to this point of origin and then allow them to use the value for a later trip booked on his timeline.
I don't know if this passenger was an elite passenger but I completely agree that if he was or even showed more than a couple flights in the past few months, DL should have gone a little further... but then the fact that they gave him vouchers for booking him on an oversold AA flight is beyond what most airlines do....

E,
involuntary refunds do not provide for a passenger to return to his point of origin and collect the full value of his ticket. Involuntary refunds apply to allowing him to collect the UNFLOWN portion of the itinerary on a percentage basis of the total fare paid.
My whole point is that there is no instance that I know of where an airline is obligated to - or provides regular exceptions - in a situation where a passenger begins his trip, doesn't continue at any point and then returns to his point of origin at no expense - or the ability to roll the value over to another trip.
Airlines specifically do not allow that practice because if they did, at least 15% of the passengers based on DOT on-time stats would claim that they are inconvenienced, and return to their origin w/ the airlines having gone to all the effort to that point for no revenue.

 

[eolesen]

WT, the extents to which you defend DL's actions are laughable sometimes.


Are you seriously trying to say that DL can divert a EVV-DTW flight to LIT, and expect customers to have to use their return ticket to return to the original point of embarkation when DL is incapable of routing them to their intended destination?

Seriously?

This isn't a case of getting to the hub and turning around because of a weather delay.

It was a mechanical diversion gone bad, and within DL's control.

If there ever was an example of breach of contract, this is it.

To the original poster, I suggest you file a written complaint with the DOT, and start flying on either American or United.

 

[WorldTraveler]

WT, the extents to which you defend DL's actions are laughable sometimes.


Are you seriously trying to say that DL can divert a EVV-DTW flight to LIT, and expect customers to have to use their return ticket to return to the original point of embarkation when DL is incapable of routing them to their intended destination?

Seriously?

This isn't a case of getting to the hub and turning around because of a weather delay.

It was a mechanical diversion gone bad, and within DL's control.

If there ever was an example of breach of contract, this is it.

To the original poster, I suggest you file a written complaint with the DOT, and start flying on either American or United.

E,
it's obvious that you honestly don't understand how the industry works... obviously your career never touched on the regulatory or pricing aspects of the industry -or if they did, please don't tell us or we'd know why you don't work there anymore.

No, it is not a breach of contract and the fact that you even suggest it shows your ignorance.

The fact that you suggest that he fly UA from EVV puts the nail in the coffin.

I hear a stat call for you on the AA forum... you're not convincing anyone over there either.

The longer you try to turn this thread into a personal vendetta, the more ridiculous you look.

You can argue that DL is not being sensitive but you can't argue that DL doesn't have the legal right - along w/ every other carrier - to say that a passenger is not entitled to a full refund or a transportation credit equal to the full value of the original ticket once they begin their travel. It is that simple... trying to argue otherwise simply shows you don't understand how air transportation works.

I haven't heard anyone - including you - think through the implications of what an air transportation system would look like if passengers can ask to turn around at any point prior to their destination and demand a full refund.
Thankfully the airlines have thought it through which is why they don't allow it.


They'll fix the problem enroute but they won't let you return to your origin and get your full money back.