Delta to give all domestic employees raises in 2012

[2BlacknBlue]

and talking with a labor lawyer is in order - esp. since there are multiple people involved.

Spoke with two labor attys today. Here's what they collectively had to say: "Georgia recognizes the doctrine of employment at will. Employment at will means that in the absence of a written contract of employment for a defined duration, an employer can terminate an employee for good cause, bad cause or no cause at all, so long as it is not an illegal cause. Illegal reasons (e.g., discriminatory reasons, whistle-blowing, or engaging in certain activities protected by law)."

 

[FWAAA]

Spoke with two labor attys today. Here's what they collectively had to say: "Georgia recognizes the doctrine of employment at will. Employment at will means that in the absence of a written contract of employment for a defined duration, an employer can terminate an employee for good cause, bad cause or no cause at all, so long as it is not an illegal cause. Illegal reasons (e.g., discriminatory reasons, whistle-blowing, or engaging in certain activities protected by law)."

Those labor attorneys accurately described employment at will. Delta may employ various procedures designed to keep its nonunion employees on the job (warnings, coaching, treatment, etc), but when push comes to shove, employees at will are generally unable to win a wrongful termination suit (unless they can show discrimination, etc that you pointed out).

 

[2BlacknBlue]

Those labor attorneys accurately described employment at will. Delta may employ various procedures designed to keep its nonunion employees on the job (warnings, coaching, treatment, etc), but when push comes to shove, employees at will are generally unable to win a wrongful termination suit (unless they can show discrimination, etc that you pointed out).

Amen.

That's why it drives me crazy to hear about these magical unicorns coming from above to get us to hold hands and sing kumbaya. This is a business. Period. It is to be treated as such. Period. My family is at home.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Spoke with two labor attys today. Here's what they collectively had to say: "Georgia recognizes the doctrine of employment at will. Employment at will means that in the absence of a written contract of employment for a defined duration, an employer can terminate an employee for good cause, bad cause or no cause at all, so long as it is not an illegal cause. Illegal reasons (e.g., discriminatory reasons, whistle-blowing, or engaging in certain activities protected by law)."

that is ALL true if you were looking at DL as a one state operation that didn't have established processes... but it is also true that DL uses a system for evaluation and performance evaluation.... and once again DL has ONE SET of HR policies for all of its domestic employees and they meet the standards that apply to all states.
If DL does not give you the process that they say they will use for employee evaluation and counseling (and it is in writing) then you could well have a case.
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In the case noted here, according to the information that was known, DL DID use its evaluation process to identify that some of the employees in TechOps had performance that did not meet DL's standards. They do NOT have to drag the process out for years on end.
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But once again, this was a reduction in force exercise and the process is very different from a standard ongoing job. It remains that it is very difficult to get rid of an employee in a non-RIF environment. But in an RIF, DL does have the right to evaluate existing employees and sever the ties with the weakest performers in an organization - and they do have a process for ensuring that those employees know their performance does not meet standards.
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Once again, though, a union CANNOT stop an RIF - so the difference comes down to that a union will sacrifice the jobs of the most junior employees - regardless of whether their performance is acceptable or not - while in a performance based system, DL is interested in retaining the highest performing individuals.
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DL employees have long known what is expected of them and the vast majority have had no problem meeting DL's requirements and collectively there is no perceived need to protect the jobs of those who cannot meet the standards for the job.

 

[Kev3188]

But since the company is apparently willing to BUY employee loyalty with higher pay (how absolutely low of them), then maybe these fears of employee abuse are really quite overblown.

Sarcasm noted.

There's nothing "low" about it; it's simply a calculated business move. Employees simply need to recognize it for what it is. Let's also not forget that much of any increase should it come to pass, will only offset the cuts to benefits that the PMNW group is now seeing. Attempting to dazzle people with dollar signs works well, unfortuantely.

At will or not, it is not easy to just terminate an employee. Everything must be documented and you need a paper trail a mile long. I'm speaking from personal experience in management with an HR degree, and as a current employee in a non-union hospital. We had a nurse that was caught stealing narcotics and the company sent her to rehab and she is still employed-and we don't have a union contract. During my stint in management at DL, I would "coach" employees numerous times before they were actually terminated (2 under my watch). This was after 3-5 years of coaching and documenting the issue (which the employee signs). Barring an employee physically assaulting someone on company property, it's not nearly as easy as you seem to believe. I get tired of pulling the weight of a few slackers at my current job and wish they were gone-but management just keeps slapping them on the wrist and documenting every incident with the hopes of someday, years from now, they can get rid of them.

I didn't say it was easy; I said it's possible. And most of things that people think meet the threshold of wrongful termination, simply don't.

Just to be clear, no one's advocating for slackers. I may be pro labor, but I'm also a crew chief, and the last thing I want for myself or any of my guys is to carry dead weight. At NW, we used to do the new hire evals., and could often stop a problem before it started. Now, it's out of our hands, and many times the feedback mgmt. needs to make an objective decisions doesn't make it through.

I won't speculate on the nurse's specifics (it's none of our business), but I'd be curious to know what the hospital's EAP program entails. That may have played a role. Also, if the addiction was labeled a disease, then termination may have been off the table for the time being.

Amen! Kev, you are right on. And one step further, they can write anything on your eval, you write your rebuttal, and bad ish happens to you anyway. Professed recipient on this end!

Truth.

but let's also note that there is a difference between downsizing which unions have not been able to counter - up to 50% of some airline staff have been reduced over the past decade even among unionized employee groups - and termination.

Who's claiming that a union can stop a RIF? Outsourcing is a different story. There are many hundreds of NW employees still on the payroll today in stations that would've been closed were it not for the IAM advocating on our behalf.

Amen.

That's why it drives me crazy to hear about these magical unicorns coming from above to get us to hold hands and sing kumbaya. This is a business. Period. It is to be treated as such. Period. My family is at home.

Exactly. Business is business. Family is family. My "family" are the people who I eat dinner with every night.

and once again DL has ONE SET of HR policies for all of its domestic employees and they meet the standards that apply to all states.

That's right. One set. One set that starts with a paragraph noting that just as any employee is free to leave at any time for any reason, so too is the company free to terminate the employment relationship with the employee at any time for any reason.

 

[WorldTraveler]

No sarcasm was intended... only to show that DL is willing to pay its employees higher wages in order to obtain employee loyalty - DL hardly started the concept but it used it very effectively for years and is apparently returning to the concept.
For the vast majority of DL employees, they don't care the reasons.. they just know that they make more than their peers at comparable airlines and that is enough.
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Your assessment of offsetting benefits costs is correct - assuming there are employees who use all of the benefits... and there are many employees who do not have the same benefit profile that you do. Thus, an increase in pay may yield a larger percentage of take home pay than for you.
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You are correct that most people do not think through the implications of being terminated - but they do not need to if they are doing their job well and being responsive to the feedback they do receive from mgmt/supervision.
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DL is being honest in telling its employees the basis for their continued employment with the company - do your job, contribute to the company's success, and then enjoy the fruits of your labor alongside the company. The airline industry is well-known for having labor groups that are more interested in getting what they want, regardless of the impact on the employee.
Perhaps the reason DL is succeeding is because its employees understand those basic tenets of success that should guide any rational employee-employer relationship... but which have been all too screwed up in the airline industry.
And yes business is business. Come to work expecting to do what you do for the company and go home. They are not there to be your friends. Find them elsewhere if you choose. I for one have never said differently.

 

[NYCDelta]

No sir nyc.....just saw many walked out Oct 1st, some that have never had a bad eval until THIS one! Hell one employee's start time was 630, but he came in everyday @ 530, for years! Very conscience employee I've known for 15 years, walked out.....Downsizing the department-GOTTA GO!

If you're talking about a downsizing/furlough situation that is different. I'm saying a manager can't just fire someone for no reason without alot of documentation, "at will" state or not-speaking from personal experience. If they could, half of my unit wouldn't be here today, based on job performance.

When I accepted a voluntary furlough from UA (management position), I was escorted off the property after my badge was confiscated. To some, it may have looked like I was being terminated (and I actually received messages on FB asking me if I was) but I wasn't. That was the protocol.

 

[2BlacknBlue]

If you're talking about a downsizing/furlough situation that is different. I'm saying a manager can't just fire someone for no reason without alot of documentation, "at will" state or not-speaking from personal experience. If they could, half of my unit wouldn't be here today, based on job performance.

When I accepted a voluntary furlough from UA (management position), I was escorted off the property after my badge was confiscated. To some, it may have looked like I was being terminated (and I actually received messages on FB asking me if I was) but I wasn't. That was the protocol.

Curious to see how this pans out, seeing as how the story didn't infer that management having "alot of documentation for termination". Or is this just a one-man furlough!
Man claims he was fired to make room for ‘hot chicks'

"Shortly after implementing the new strategy, Varasano’s began to drastically reduce Clark's work hours, he said. Clark said he was terminated in September 2010 without reason, according to the suit."

"Varasano also sent the AJC a copy of an inquiry that the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission made regarding the case. The EEOC had dismissed the case in September. "Based upon its investigation, the EEOC is unable to conclude that the information obtained establishes violations of the statutes," the dismissal states."

 

[WorldTraveler]

Curious to see how this pans out, seeing as how the story didn't infer that management having "alot of documentation for termination". Or is this just a one-man furlough!
Man claims he was fired to make room for ‘hot chicks'

"Shortly after implementing the new strategy, Varasano’s began to drastically reduce Clark's work hours, he said. Clark said he was terminated in September 2010 without reason, according to the suit."

"Varasano also sent the AJC a copy of an inquiry that the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission made regarding the case. The EEOC had dismissed the case in September. "Based upon its investigation, the EEOC is unable to conclude that the information obtained establishes violations of the statutes," the dismissal states."

obviously we don't and never will know the details of what happened and perhaps this is a good example of what can happen in a state like GA.... but it also is not directly applicable to DL because DL does have a written evaluation process which is not different from what is used in other states (thus the argument that "GA law or the lack thereof allows DL to do things that would not happen in other states" is not valid)
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Further, unless there is evidence that can be submitted in a court of law, it is pretty hard to prove discrimination... Case in point, I took my car several years ago in for service at the dealer. While waiting for the service dept. to bring it the car up to the front of the dealership, one of the salesmen asked me why I bought my car in another city hundreds of miles away. I told him that I found a better deal and that I was unable to get any of the dealers "here" to reduce their prices more than a couple hundred dollars off of list price - two of the three dealers for this car were owned by one company and the 3rd dealer was independent. He responded that there was "sort of an agreement" between their dealer and the "other one" that they would not reduce prices below the level which I had found during my negotiations. If I had a tape recorder going in my pocket at the moment, I would be driving a new model of that car - a desirable brand - for years to come. But I had no evidence so couldn't go to court or the state Attorney General but have told that story in that city whenever I hear someone looking to buy that brand.
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If you think you are being framed, capture the evidence... and then act quickly.
But more often that not, we create excuses in our own minds for what is happening to us and don't act to change what we can when we can.

 

[700UW]

And what does buying a car have to do with that an employee at will can be discharged without Just Cause, unlike a unionized worker, has to fit the steps of Just Cause?

 

[WorldTraveler]

And what does buying a car have to do with that an employee at will can be discharged without Just Cause, unlike a unionized worker, has to fit the steps of Just Cause?

Because price collusion is illegal just as wrongful termination of an employee.
While you and others would like to believe that there is no recourse for a non-union employee who has been terminated, there in fact are a number of legal recourses available.
But given that DL applies the same standard to its employees in all states, then the notion that the state where the employee was terminated has anything to do with the process is incorrect.
Given that DL has an evaluation process which it uses along with performance improvement plans, then the notion that a DL employee will be laid off without notice is simply incorrect... and if a DL employee is terminated w/o that process, then there is most definitely the basis for a lawsuit. Asking a general question about GA law won't yield that result... asking a question about a Delta Air Lines employee will.
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But it still remains that the case that was cited was a reduction in force...which has specific processes. The person who posted regarding the people he knew at TechOps has not countered that DL's procedures weren't followed.
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Again, the difference between a non-union and union environment is that DL has the ability to terminate employees on the basis of performance with no regard to seniority - but DL does have an will use the appropriate process - applicable to any of the 50 states - to evaluate employee performance on a regular basis and then warn the employee of any performance issues the company sees. It is the responsibility of the employee to respond to the feedback he/she is given.

 

[700UW]

Just like this right?

DL fires Flight Attendant

And the AFA got involved in it.

More

 

[southwind]

And what does buying a car have to do with that an employee at will can be discharged without Just Cause, unlike a unionized worker, has to fit the steps of Just Cause?

I have yet to see or hear of an "At will" employee walked out for no reason. And sorry, Rifs do not count pal !

 

[WorldTraveler]

700,
Every American should speak up when there is injustice as you noted in the drug testing regime… but note that it wasn’t the AFA who changed the law but rather the appropriate government bodies.
But let’s step back and let me ask again why you and others want to try to bring these types of rather obscure type issues up? It would appear that the sole purpose is to continue the campaign to validate that unions have a valid purpose and that the DL employees should embrace them.
Can I be brutal honest in stating the honest? Over 3 years ago when DL announced its merger/acquisition of NW, it made it rather clear – and hasn’t wavered in that commitment since – that DL’s goal was to integrate all of the PMNW labor personnel with the addition of no new unions at DL. OTOH, the labor movement had a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to convert DL from being a largely non-unionized to a unionized carrier since the NW merger involved the highest percentage of PMDL unionized employees compared to PMDL’s workforce. The stakes for organized labor were enormous – they would either lose tens of thousands of members or they would gain tens of thousands of new members and change the dynamic of the US airline industry.
To put in bluntly, organized labor struck out, failing to convert a single PMDL employee group while DL hit a proverbial grand slam. You might not like the analogy but that is the brutal truth.
The simple fact is that organized labor failed to present a credible basis to PMDL employees to become unionized – and many PMNW employees apparently decided to join other PMDL employees in voting against representation.
The tactics that organized labor completely failed to convince DL people now, yet you and others continue to drag out isolated cases that don’t even conclusively show that unions made or could make a difference. What organized labor has done is help to rearrange the size of cuts to particular areas which the legacy airlines made over the past decade or so but the overall size of the cuts didn’t change.
DL maintained its largely non-union status against a national backdrop that sees private sector employees in the US almost entirely non-union and state governments moving forward with assaults on public sector organized labor.
Even if we restrict our view just to the airline industry, there is little credible evidence that unions have made a difference outside of the pilot unions and the fact that organized labor has repeatedly lost attempts to organize some DL groups such as the FAs on multiple occasions and other newer carriers should lead organized labor to do some serious soul-searching as to why their service is no longer deemed to be valuable by employees.
I have said that very message here and in personal conversations over the past 3 plus years as the DL-NW merger played out.
Instead of bashing those who confront you and the labor movement with the cold hard reality of the situation labor faces, how about you and others become agents to implement what is necessary to allow labor to win, not just at DL but in every challenge that it faces? If the marketplace (companies) are no longer responsive to the message that you believe organized labor should carry, then take your message to city hall, state capitols, and public forums – but lay out a credible plan for how whatever organization you believe can solve these problems will do so.
Americans – and Delta employees – aren’t biting at claims from organizations that can’t fix the problems. If you want to make a difference, do the deep soul-searching necessary to figure out what it takes to win at whatever you do.
And if you genuinely don’t believe you can win at your present game, then find another one.
Life is too short to waste your energy on efforts that cannot deliver and no one wants.

 

[700UW]

Bob and weave and neglect the what was poised to you and all airline unions lobbied the government to change the drug testing regulations.