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Kev, have you noticed something from the memos concerning the raises in January? Memorandums state that the raises that we were suppose to get in July 2013 are being fast forwarded to January 2013, correct? And if so, didn't we give up 5% in profit sharing to obtain the raises we were already scheduled to get? And remember, only those at the top of the scale are receiving the 5% while others are only receiving 4%.....giving up 5% in profit sharing to get a 4% raise?

In other words, status quo would have given the employees a 15% profit sharing check AND a raise in July, correct? This Widget math comes at a detriment!
 
I'm not Kev (as if there was a question) but DL has not given across the board pay raises at the same amount for quite some time.... they wanted to include more performance components to pay since they came out of BK just as mgmt/merit workers have had for years.

Your reduced profit sharing will still be far higher in 2013 even at reduced levels than what other airline employees will receive - and they are only getting pay raises in order to integrate workforces post merger. Note that UA said in investor guidance they quietly released right after Christmas that they will likely post a significant loss, are pulling capacity faster via operational irregularities (a very inefficient way to reduce capacity) faster than they can increase RASM, and will pay fuel costs which will probably be higher than AA or DL. Profit sharing expenses for UA in 2012 will amount to small double digit millions - a fraction of what DL will pay.
At WN, pay raises in 2012 didn't happen and DL employee profit sharing will eclipse what WN employees will receive.

I'm not doubting that DL is using the same argument of time value of money for advancing pay raises and offering you cost neutral "pay raises" but there are alot of DL pilots who thought the company did the same thing - yet the pilots voted in their contract by 65% or so.

Look around the industry and DL employees are still doing better than many of their peers.

#maintainperspective
 
Looks like Richard Anderson copied my theme 🙂 that DL is breaking away from its peers in his end of year message to DL employees which was picked up in its entirety (along w/ DL's 2013 Flight Plan)

here is an excerpt on the section regarding employee issues:

Our employee survey scores from 2012 reflect a high level of employee satisfaction, a testament to our progress in making Delta a good place to work. We continue to invest in Delta people through highly competitive pay and benefits, career development opportunities and helping our colleagues in need. We paid more than $264 million in profit sharing in February, provided pay increases in July, and during the course of the year employees received $91 million in Shared Rewards. With your help, we awarded more than 300 Delta scholarships and distributed more than $1.2 million in grants through the Delta Care Fund.
These investments will continue. On January 1, another round of pay increases will go into effect for eligible frontline and merit employees, and on Valentine’s Day 2013, we expect a solid profit sharing payout that will exceed the 2012 payout.



and

When we consistently offer customers a friendly, reliable, convenient travel experience, the financial returns naturally follow. (uh-huh, emphasis mine) For the past 20 consecutive months, we generated a revenue premium to the industry, meaning customers were willing to pay more for our products and services compared to our competitors. We have also grown our corporate accounts, convincing large companies to switch their business to Delta. These accomplishments will bring us a $1.6 billion profit for 2012. This revenue success gives us the resources to invest in you and our product.
http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/
 
I'm not Kev (as if there was a question) but DL has not given across the board pay raises at the same amount for quite some time.... they wanted to include more performance components to pay since they came out of BK just as mgmt/merit workers have had for years.

Your reduced profit sharing will still be far higher in 2013 even at reduced levels than what other airline employees will receive - and they are only getting pay raises in order to integrate workforces post merger. Note that UA said in investor guidance they quietly released right after Christmas that they will likely post a significant loss, are pulling capacity faster via operational irregularities (a very inefficient way to reduce capacity) faster than they can increase RASM, and will pay fuel costs which will probably be higher than AA or DL. Profit sharing expenses for UA in 2012 will amount to small double digit millions - a fraction of what DL will pay.
At WN, pay raises in 2012 didn't happen and DL employee profit sharing will eclipse what WN employees will receive.

I'm not doubting that DL is using the same argument of time value of money for advancing pay raises and offering you cost neutral "pay raises" but there are alot of DL pilots who thought the company did the same thing - yet the pilots voted in their contract by 65% or so.

Look around the industry and DL employees are still doing better than many of their peers.

#maintainperspective

DUDE, DUDE, DUDE....Go back and READ what I wrote! Maybe you misunderstood. I'll make it simple: Before the switcheroo, we were slated to receive a 15% profit sharing check in February AND a pay increase July 2013. Got it? Good....Now since management has decided to expedite our payraises to January 2013, they have also called for a reduction in profit sharing (15% to a now established 10%) to give us a 5% increase in salary January 2013-THAT WE WERE ALREADY SLATED TO GET...GET IT? An increase is being tossed out the window...Hello?

....and PLEASE dont get me started on merit pay..Performance components? There is no real "merit" pay for the supervisory/administrative employees....and that's from experience!

#keepitreal
 
DUDE, DUDE, DUDE....Go back and READ what I wrote! Maybe you misunderstood. I'll make it simple: Before the switcheroo, we were slated to receive a 15% profit sharing check in February AND a pay increase July 2013. Got it? Good....Now since management has decided to expedite our payraises to January 2013, they have also called for a reduction in profit sharing (15% to a now established 10%) to give us a 5% increase in salary January 2013-THAT WE WERE ALREADY SLATED TO GET...GET IT? An increase is being tossed out the window...Hello?

....and PLEASE dont get me started on merit pay..Performance components? There is no real "merit" pay for the supervisory/administrative employees....and that's from experience!

#keepitreal
Stop that.

You should feel privileged to enjoy your "superior employment experience" every day.
 
Looks like Richard Anderson copied my theme 🙂 that DL is breaking away from its peers in his end of year message to DL employees which was picked up in its entirety (along w/ DL's 2013 Flight Plan)
I am sure Richard's team and all DL employees thank you very much for your guidance and leadership in these difficult times. I am sure a nice fruit basket is headed your way from the BOD. :blush:
 
DUDE, DUDE, DUDE....Go back and READ what I wrote! Maybe you misunderstood. I'll make it simple: Before the switcheroo, we were slated to receive a 15% profit sharing check in February AND a pay increase July 2013. Got it? Good....Now since management has decided to expedite our payraises to January 2013, they have also called for a reduction in profit sharing (15% to a now established 10%) to give us a 5% increase in salary January 2013-THAT WE WERE ALREADY SLATED TO GET...GET IT? An increase is being tossed out the window...Hello?

....and PLEASE dont get me started on merit pay..Performance components? There is no real "merit" pay for the supervisory/administrative employees....and that's from experience!

#keepitreal
no you were not going to receive a 15% profit sharing check...we can stop right there. DL was going to allocate 15% of its earnings (not sure of the exact formula) to each employee based on a pro rata portion of each employee's part of the payroll, to say it simplistically.
You WERE NOT going to receive 15% of your salary in profit sharing, plain and simple.

15% of corporate profits in employee profit sharing actually resulted in about a 5-6% profit sharing check for each employee which means that a reduction in profit sharing from 15-10% and an increase in pay of 5% still will result in a pay increase compared to the past year.
But tell me again how much profit sharing your peers are at other carriers?
Tell me the actual increase in your pay in 2012 compared to your peers at other airlines esp. when you include profit sharing?

Hate to break it to you but you are one of many; you have to share DL's profit sharing w/ about 70K other employees.

Once we establish what 15% profit sharing means to the salary of each individual employee, then we can talk about what has changed.

#knowthebasics
 
Maybe if there weren't such an effort to prove me wrong by those who ultimately do get it wrong when I get it right, I wouldn't be quite as focused on pointing out my success.

You for one have a hard time accepting that I really do understand DL.

BTW, did you ever actually work for them? Maybe I misread but I thought you left NW before NW ever merged with DL.

BTW, it's DL's success.. I just happen to know the industry well enough to see it developing.


#HappyNewYear
 
Maybe if there weren't such an effort to prove me wrong by those who ultimately do get it wrong when I get it right, I wouldn't be quite as focused on pointing out my success.

You for one have a hard time accepting that I really do understand DL.

BTW, did you ever actually work for them? Maybe I misread but I thought you left NW before NW ever merged with DL.

BTW, it's DL's success.. I just happen to know the industry well enough to see it developing.


#HappyNewYear

No World, you got this one wrong. If you worked for me and I promised you a 15% cut of the profits on February 2013 and a 5% pay raise in July 2013, then i stated that I'm going to quicken your raise to January 2013 but would reduce your profit sharing by 5% to give you the same hastened raise, you'd indeed scrutinize that you're losing 5% of your profit sharing to obtain the same raise that you were initially promised in July. Raise.....profit sharing....they are not the same (steadfastly waiting for you to instruct me that if I don't like it then I can leave.) . Unappreciative? Hardly. Ungrateful? Not in the least. I call it like I see it. If you can get an explanation that somehow details what I am missing in this equation, please come back and explain what I am misunderstanding. I would be more than happy to be wrong.
 
You are getting a 5% raise of your own pay but your share of the corporate profit sharing is being reduced from 15 to 10%. 15% sharing profit sharing does not result in 15% pay raise... which means that a 5% reduction does not reduce your share of that profit sharing by 5%.

You had no assurance that you were going to receive a 5% pay raise in July; neither did the pilots when their profit sharing was also reduced from 15 to 10%. DL did not tell you that they were going to give you a 5% raise in 2013 until they announced the reduction in profit sharing.

BTW, the majority of employees said they want less of their salary at risk, which was a move I said (on here) that I didn't agree with even though I - and you - didn't know about the pay raise in 2013. The pilots decided they wanted reduced profit sharing and increased scale rates long before DL decided to offer the same proposal to frontline personnel.

It's a mathematical calculation, nothing more.

BTW, Happy New Year.
 
Kev, have you noticed something from the memos...

What I always notice in any "memo" is that the math changes to suit whatever narrative the company would like us to believe.


Stop that.

You should feel privileged to enjoy your "superior employment experience" every day.

Ha!


No World, you got this one wrong. If you worked for me and I promised you a 15% cut of the profits on February 2013 and a 5% pay raise in July 2013, then i stated that I'm going to quicken your raise to January 2013 but would reduce your profit sharing by 5% to give you the same hastened raise, you'd indeed scrutinize that you're losing 5% of your profit sharing to obtain the same raise that you were initially promised in July. Raise.....profit sharing....they are not the same (steadfastly waiting for you to instruct me that if I don't like it then I can leave.) .

Technically, the percentage of the pool available for payout will be reduced by 33% going forward.


Unappreciative? Hardly. Ungrateful? Not in the least. I call it like I see it.

You should know by now that calling it like you see it makes you "unappreciative, and "not a team player" in the company's eyes. No room for dissent here...
 
Well Happy New Year and glad you’ve joined this part of the conversation Kev. 2BnB and Q were waiting w/ me for you to jump in.
Even though it’s a new year, looks like we’re back to some of the same issues, so off we go…..
1. You may want to see yourselves as dissidents that the company doesn’t appreciate but your characterizations aren’t accurate. You are as appreciated as any other employee and paid accordingly. Your viewpoints, however, represent a minority view which fewer and fewer employees are willing to embrace; that is probably why there hasn’t been any significant change in the unionization rates at DL in about 50 years. If it does, let me know but I’m not realistically expecting anything different.
2. Whether the memo changes or not, the assertion that was originally made that employees would fare worse off as a result in the change in profit sharing and the advancement of the pay raise is inaccurate, plain and simple. Moving the pay raise forward by 6 months is the equivalent of a 2 ½ percent increase in annual pay. Your profit sharing would have had to be at 7.5% of your salary for a 33% reduction (accurate statement) in profit sharing to result in a decrease in pay. You tell me what percent of your salary you received in profit sharing in 2011 but I am quite sure that it wasn’t at 7.5% (but correct me if I am wrong.)
3. I’ve called it the way I see it with the airline industry and Delta Air Lines for about 9 years now – and even though I have been branded as a dissident on this board – I am unfazed and soldier on with the task I had before me 9 years ago when I started on this forum and am not about to shirk away from in 2013. Among other key points, I said that DL would successfully restructure and become a global powerhouse, and that is precisely what they have done. I have also said that other carriers, including AA and UA would fail to achieve the same level of success and that continues to be the case. I have also said that part of DL’s success would involve retaining its historic non-union status among non-pilot personnel and that has absolutely been the case, to the chagrin of a whole lot of people and the consternation of those who continue to believe that the best interest of DL employees will be met only through unionization. No shortage of people have tried to stop me from speaking on each one of those points and discredit me , yet I continue unabated to the total frustration of a whole lot of people. Oh well.
4. Despite the assertions that the labor movement is necessary to secure a solid future for Delta employees, the facts clearly remain that DL employees suffered the lowest losses among their network airline peers in bankruptcy and have regained far more since BK than any other airline group. While 2BnB would like to paint the picture that something is being taken from DL employees as part of the changes to profit sharing and the pay raise, the fact remains that just in the years 2012-2013, the vast majority of DL employees will rack up compensation increases of 10% or more in 2 consecutive years including profit sharing, a nearly unheard of rate of improvement in compensation in the airline industry, even during the regulated era. More significantly, VERY FEW workers in the US are seeing compensation increases anywhere close to those levels. Look around and #maintainperspective.
5. I am absolutely cognizant of the cultural differences that exist from the way Delta Air Lines operates and the way Northwest Airlines operates, specifically with respect to labor relations. What cannot be denied, however, is that the vast majority of employees in any company are motivated more by compensation than any other factor and on that basis, DL has provided a #superioremploymentexperience when compared with other airlines. Allegiance to the labor union cannot trump economic aspects – and endless threads on this forum are filled w/ the failure of labor unions to achieve what they promised. Network pilots pine on one chat forum after another how they are trying to achieve the gains that DL pilots’ have obtained. Even WN’s heavily unionized and typically best-of-the-industry compensation policy is not achieving anywhere close to the level of increases that DL employees are enjoying.
6. Given DL’s ability to successfully integrate and benefit from the NW merger followed by the identification and implementation of initiatives necessary to grow the company’s profitability, DL employees will likely continue to enjoy compensation increasingly ahead of their network carrier peers and closer to WN employees, who are not seeing the pay increases they once did. The only likely outcome is that the rate of pay increases in 2012 and 2013 at DL will not continue at that rate for many more years – but the distance between DL and other airline employees is already growing wide enough that it will be impossible for other carriers to close for years to come, driven by the fact that DL is and will continue to deliver profitability that far exceeds what other US airlines are able to deliver.
Against that backdrop and those realities, assertions that DL is somehow taking something away from DL employees will increasingly ring hollow.
Those of us who are thrilled to see DL and its employees achieve this kind of success will vigorously challenge assertions that the success being experienced by DL and its employees is anything short of some of the best airline employees have ever seen.

Given that I am certain there will be no disagreement to those key principles, the DL forum of this site will be nothing short of peace and tranquility in 2013.
 
Jesus, World Traveler. I had to take a Huge dose of an Anti-Nausea medication, after reading all your Rah-Rah BS about 'Mutha Del-Duh' !

Kev3188. Approximately when is the next 'below-wing' IAM election scheduled ?
 

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