Engineered to fail?

kcabpilot

Senior
Aug 22, 2002
271
0
Okay, let''s admit that maybe our IAM representative is not the sharpest rock in the pile but every time the company assumes that he represents the collective intelligence level of the Mechanics and tries to pull a fast one it simply underlines the reason why there is no trust in them. I suppose that someone on one or both sides of the negotiating table must have thought that forcing the Mechanics to give up a weeks wages in a lump sum in order to be able to use any of their vacation days and therefore calling a 9% paycut a 7% paycut was a good idea. Maybe they thought no one would “catch onâ€. They may have also figured that having the vote the day before Thanksgiving when many people are off or out of town or on the road would be a “good ideaâ€.
Well, it’s gone over about as well as a turd in the punchbowl.
Oh and please, please spare me the “There’s no time!, You’re just going to have to quit your whining and swallow the bitter pill†crap. UAL has screwed the pooch again.
Whatever happens after this gets voted down; on December 14th, after the company reneges on the first retro payment, the IAM members will be ONE HALF BILLION DOLLARS ahead of the rest of you as far as what has been “contributed†to this ERP so far.
 

DLFlyer31

Senior
Aug 20, 2002
444
0
[blockquote]
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On 11/22/2002 12:26:24 PM kcabpilot wrote:

the IAM members will be ONE HALF BILLION DOLLARS ahead of the rest of you as far as what has been contributed to this ERP so far.

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[/blockquote]

I'm sure the BK judge will fix that problem.
 

UAL777flyer

Veteran
Aug 20, 2002
730
0
The saddest part of all is that the majority of the tough-talking rhetoric is probably coming from people who have never gone through an airline bankruptcy before and therefore don't have a clue what they'd be in for.
 

wts54

Senior
Sep 16, 2002
374
0
www.usaviation.com
Its 7% now plus the other raises in the pipeline
that were due for the life of the contract.So its
more than 7%.Turd in the punchbowl thats funny.
The last contract has in the agreement that the retro
will still be paid even if there is a bankruptcy with
WHQ building,sims,engines,etc I wonder wasnt that agreement
designed to withstand BK?? Any thoughts on that from anyone.
 

spacewaitress

Senior
Aug 27, 2002
468
0
[blockquote]
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On 11/22/2002 12:26:24 PM kcabpilot wrote:

Whatever happens after this gets voted down; on December 14th, after the company reneges on the first retro payment, the IAM members will be ONE HALF BILLION DOLLARS ahead of the rest of you as far as what has been “contributedâ€￾ to this ERP so far.

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[/blockquote]

Tell it to the bankruptcy judge. I see payrates on the property being slashed at least 1/4 to 1/2, + benefit cuts.

I can't wait to hear the rationalizations and the chest pounding on this DB from everyone of you guys that vote against it...now THAT, will be entertainment!

It defies reason...and explains the miserable state of unionism in America. Join a Union, destroy your future (and that of others). Makes sense to me!
 

Busdrvr

Veteran
Aug 20, 2002
2,217
0
[blockquote]
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On 11/22/2002 1:38:37 PM wts54 wrote:

Regardless people still have a right to
express themselves at the ballot box
however they choose.Even if it means
self-destruction.Its the American way!!
My position on the vote is clear I am not
happy but will accept it.
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[/blockquote]

I agree with you wts54, who in his right mind would be happy about a paycut. But rational thinking dictates a yes vote
 

wts54

Senior
Sep 16, 2002
374
0
www.usaviation.com
Regardless people still have a right to
express themselves at the ballot box
however they choose.Even if it means
self-destruction.Its the American way!!
My position on the vote is clear I am not
happy but will accept it.
 

spacewaitress

Senior
Aug 27, 2002
468
0
[blockquote]
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On 11/22/2002 2:28:27 PM kcabpilot wrote:

Look, call it “chest pounding” or “tough talking rhetoric” or whatever you want. I’m just telling you how this thing is being accepted. It’s very likely that it will be voted down by 141M and if it is it’s because of the way they structured it. Nearly everyone I’ve talked to sees it this way: The IAM agrees to 1.5 billion over 5.5 years. The company owes the IAM half a billion so keep it, figure the wage cut for 1 billion over 5.5 and be done with the thing. No differential equations necessary, no passing funds back and forth and no asinine pay-up-front-to-take-your-vacation clause that serves ZERO purpose other than to claim this is only a 7% cut.

You people seem to think we shouldn’t even read the darn thing, just sign it and shut up.

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[/blockquote]

I guess utltimately it seems destructive for all of us. But you are right, you guys have to do what you have to do and we'll all see where things come out in the end.
 
OP
K

kcabpilot

Senior
Aug 22, 2002
271
0
Look, call it “chest pounding†or “tough talking rhetoric†or whatever you want. I’m just telling you how this thing is being accepted. It’s very likely that it will be voted down by 141M and if it is it’s because of the way they structured it. Nearly everyone I’ve talked to sees it this way: The IAM agrees to 1.5 billion over 5.5 years. The company owes the IAM half a billion so keep it, figure the wage cut for 1 billion over 5.5 and be done with the thing. No differential equations necessary, no passing funds back and forth and no asinine pay-up-front-to-take-your-vacation clause that serves ZERO purpose other than to claim this is only a 7% cut.

You people seem to think we shouldn’t even read the darn thing, just sign it and shut up.
 

magsau

Veteran
Aug 20, 2002
787
0
I would not let the vocal minority worry you about the IAM vote. On the ALPA BB we had the vocal minority screaming about the erp that passed with over 6,000 for and on around 300 against. The squeaky will vents. The rest know that this is a important step in the restructuring of UAL. I have faith that not all the mechanics at UAL are as bullheaded as the ones that have found this board.
 

lstwhknight

Member
Oct 25, 2002
43
0
www.usaviation.com
[blockquote]
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On 11/22/2002 1:32:01 PM UAL777flyer wrote:

The saddest part of all is that the majority of the tough-talking rhetoric is probably coming from people who have never gone through an airline bankruptcy before and therefore don't have a clue what they'd be in for.
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[/blockquote]
We have been thru two BKs,paycuts,layoffs etc.It's rough but we came back stronger.It was the mechanics who got the pay cut at CAL too.We went thru a CEO a year,management changed so much you couldnt keep up with who was running what.We had the V.P.'s telling us no layoffs etc,then cutting 5,000 mechanics jobs in LAX alone.Years later that same V.P. came back to tell us not to vote for the union.He was laughed out of LAX.The Teamsters got voted in.
Unions have thier problems,but after seeing how an airline runs without one,I will pick a union anyday.
What UAL needs is a good management team.That is what saved our butts.
 

UAL777flyer

Veteran
Aug 20, 2002
730
0
wts54,

You are correct. I would never begrudge any union employee their right to vote as they see fit on anything. It is indeed the American way. That being said, hopefully sanity and a pragmatic and realistic approach take hold to prevent short-sighted, self-destructive ramifications. We all hate cuts of any kind, especially paycuts. But I'd much rather take a paycut than have my company shutdown and liquidate. But everyone is entitled to vote with their own opinion.

kcabpilot,

I, too, am curious why the IAM voted for the vacation pay giveback part of their deal. That seems very strange to me. No work rules were changed whatsoever. No staffing requirements were changed. It appears to be simply a straight paycut along with the vacation pay giveback. Has your union gone on record to defend their logic in agreeing to this yet? Also, has the IAM issued an endorsement and recommendation for ratification of this T/A?

Just keep in the back of your minds what bankruptcy will do. I don't mean that as a heavy-handed threat. I mean that sincerely. For all of us. I have been through 2 of them and if you think this T/A stinks, if we go into bankruptcy, you ain't seen nuthin' yet! It will be much uglier. I say we take the lesser of the two evils and attempt to re-build this airline back into the competitive force it once was rather than go down the ugly road of a court-structured bankruptcy. But to each his/her own. Hopefully cooler, saner, more rational heads will prevail. But, it may ultimately be moot anyhow. I do not think the ATSB will approve our loan guarantee and thus I feel we're headed for bankruptcy within the next two weeks or so. Let's hope for all of our sakes that I'm wrong.
 

Steiner

Advanced
Aug 21, 2002
161
0
www.usaviation.com
[blockquote]
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On 11/22/2002 1:32:01 PM UAL777flyer wrote:

The saddest part of all is that the majority of the tough-talking rhetoric is probably coming from people who have never gone through an airline bankruptcy before and therefore don't have a clue what they'd be in for.
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[/blockquote]

Ever think that some of the tough talk may be coming from those of us who have been through previous bankruptcies and saw that all of our efforts to help amounted to squat?

Besides, there may be more than one vote on this if the mechanics appear confused.
 

atabuy

Senior
Oct 13, 2002
419
0
kcabpilot
I think you guys are getting all worked up about a minor thing here.
If the company takes 4 days of pay from everyone on vacation at the beginning of their vacation it will give them a head start on a lot of cash. Which is exactly what we need right away. I can't believe R&D was not part of this. We got off very easy in my opinion.
If you want to hold onto your money as long as possible, take all your vacation at the end of the year.
For myself, I am giving back my three of my four days at the end of this year. Dec. 29, 30, 31, and then Happy New Years day. Along with the whole month of Feb. A&P.
2 months in Hawaii, because as you get older and have real problems, you might discover money isn't everything.
Of course, no matter how small someones problems are, they are still a problem for that individual.

So let me tell you a little about myself. I drive a van to work that is 17 years old. My car is a 1994. My house is paid for and we have been going to Hawaii since 1983 for periods of 2 to 8 weeks. Ual has been very very good to me.
I worked on the ramp for 25 years and got a chance to improve myself and become a mechanic in B&M. I love fixing things and I must say I am good at it. I have worked in this job for over 7 years. I have a lot of knowledge about electrical, electronics, carpentry, plumbing, and cabinet work. If you want a tombstone carved and lettered I can also do that. I put 4 years in the airforce as an electronic tech.

My wife had gall bladder cancer last year, 18 months ago, and the life expectancy for this cancer is only 5% over 5 years. She had a good scan a week ago. We are estatic!

Maybe you have worse problems than me, because when I am waiting for my wife at Sloane Kettering, I see others who are seeking a way to prolong their life also. Parents waiting with their kids to see a specialist with sad eyes and hope in their heart that something can be done to give their child a future.

Money becomes so much less of an issue when compared to other hardships we might have. From my perspective they can have all of my vacation. I choose life and happiness over money.
I vote yes.