ETB-UNION "OFFICE WORK" AND FAR 121.466/467

[aredeeyou22]

You need to drink some more kool-aid. Here's one for you. We are cleaning airplanes now. Am I right? We are doing the job of employees that were let go. Am I right? Then why the hell did we take a paycut? I take over someone elses job and I still have to take a paycut? Where the hell is Pref Bidding("No later than June 2004"). And now this, get real.

More koolaid? What are you talking about? LOL :blink: Uh, I don't think I am siding with the company here.... Did I not say that the contract was completely gutted in the last round (s) of concessions??? That's why you are cleaning planes and getting paid much less to do so!!!! We better start trying to build up and support the people who try to defend what's left of our contract, instead of trying to bring everyone down. You think you do alot more NOW for less? Oh you just wait.... You do understand that the company wasnts a COST NEUTRAL COMBINED CONTRACT right? That equals ALOT MORE CONCESSIONS.

One last time, and then I am done: If there is truly violations ongoing, the AFA should step in with at least some sort of press release at least by the end of this week. If not, let's just "vote them out next time" (ala Pitbull) and move on. It would benefit us to have a strong union with support from the membership, rather all of this infighting that will surely lead us to an EVEN WEAKER COMBINED CONTRACT. Who cares about the d*&n ETB trip they took last week??!? Wake up and see the real issues here!!!
Thank you

 

[Bluewater]

More koolaid? What are you talking about? LOL :blink: Uh, I don't think I am siding with the company here.... Did I not say that the contract was completely gutted in the last round (s) of concessions??? That's why you are cleaning planes and getting paid much less to do so!!!! We better start trying to build up and support the people who try to defend what's left of our contract, instead of trying to bring everyone down. You think you do alot more NOW for less? Oh you just wait.... You do understand that the company wasnts a COST NEUTRAL COMBINED CONTRACT right? That equals ALOT MORE CONCESSIONS.

One last time, and then I am done: If there is truly violations ongoing, the AFA should step in with at least some sort of press release at least by the end of this week. If not, let's just "vote them out next time" (ala Pitbull) and move on. It would benefit us to have a strong union with support from the membership, rather all of this infighting that will surely lead us to an EVEN WEAKER COMBINED CONTRACT. Who cares about the d*&n ETB trip they took last week??!? Wake up and see the real issues here!!!
Thank you

Are deee you who and Sharky....Perhaps you need clarification. Every trip taken is one less trip. No, ETB is not 'just for reserves'. However, you have heard of trickle down? Union reps earn enough to live on...some reserves are just making due. So every trip a rep takes...so, on and so on. Also Shark breath...I put a question mark after my QUESTION! You do know what a question mark is? Is it FAR or not...(once again your inability to express or understand the English language is apparent). I have however a call into the FAA, and will hopefully hear back soon. Aredee you speak of real issues. This is an ETHIC'S violation if nothing else. It shows what kind of people we have in the union office. The 'not' caring statement about the ETB trips and (in my estimation) their 'hands in the pot', show that your unconcerned for your fellow employees. Perhaps this isn't hurting YOU...but it is hurting some! This is just one of so many skanky dealings. To get them VOTED out they must be exposed. Oh and I HAVE called the union on many issues dealing with contract violations...I've e mail Mr. Florez SEVERAL times and have NEVER ONCE let me say AGAIN...NEVER ONCE have I received a reply. Lastly
Pit union pres said NO to VP's request for working on Mother's day. He got it off anyway...now how did that happen?

When you create the perception that a union or ANY organization is the personal piggybank of a select few you've done more damage than 27 Jerry Glass's.

This true whether it's Enron, Bill Clinton, or FFOCUS for that matter.

Oddly the solution is relatively simple if we are to believe that everything is on the level. All of the officers and volunteers who recieve Flight Pay Loss have to do is publish their ETB trips and the amount of FPL hours and any supporting documentation. The publication can be on the AFA Local Website or printed and mailed.

The silence from Local 70 tells us something. What I've no idea.

I enjoy many things that I do not do at work in front of customers and co-workers. I want to manage how they percieve me. How is Local 70 leadership percieved now?

Perception is reality folks

I've always been able to apologise when when I think I've wrong someone. So Pin head accept my apology. I liked this comment. No kissy your assy on this one. Perhaps we got off on the wrong butt. Just don't go a saying we have to pucker up...and I won't give in to my inner beast. Would you like a pillow? How about a shedding blanket?

 

[sharktooth]

You skirted the issue at hand by raising other issues. Try addressing the point. Any FAR violation is not a a chicken poop thing.

Bob,

First, the situation, as described, is not an FAR violation. You and d can go to any FAA office and check with them. In fact, please do.

After you find out the truth, please come back here and apologize to all concerned. That will help right the damage.

There may be a valid question of "ethics" and perhaps you and d should start another thread with that as the topic. I would be happy to point out the impropriety of having another job during the day and flying all night. But then you will have to include anyone having appointments and scheduled "jobs" who double up.

There are self-correcting mechanisms in place that tend to discourage doubling up, but I hope for you and d to come to your own conclusions on another thread.

The major reason there is an "issue" is that the thread has been hijacked and even I get confused as to who is talking about what, so, so open another thread, now!

 

[sharktooth]

Sharktooth,
I don't need to apologize as all I've ever maintained is that as a union or ANY organization when trust is gone it's over.

Answer the question that airportman posed. Is it an FAR violation or not? When you find out for yourself that it is not, then come back here and start a new topic, say, should ETB use by AFA personnel be allowed?

Trust is recaptured by methodically posing and answering questions. It is called "dialog". If you cannot do that, then you have predetermined a lack of trust and dialog may be wasted on you.

Call the union office with questions. If you are not satisfied, then attend the next meeting and ask the question again, in front of your peers.

If you are going to lose trust in an organization, please do it in a methodical and logical manner. Trusting someone you don't even know to determine how you view an organization can be like walking through a minefield.

 

[aredeeyou22]

Are deee you who and Sharky....Perhaps you need clarification. Every trip taken is one less trip. No, ETB is not 'just for reserves'. However, you have heard of trickle down? Union reps earn enough to live on...some reserves are just making due. So every trip a rep takes...so, on and so on. Also Shark breath...I put a question mark after my QUESTION! You do know what a question mark is? Is it FAR or not...(once again your inability to express or understand the English language is apparent). I have however a call into the FAA, and will hopefully hear back soon. Aredee you speak of real issues. This is an ETHIC'S violation if nothing else. It shows what kind of people we have in the union office. The 'not' caring statement about the ETB trips and (in my estimation) their 'hands in the pot', show that your unconcerned for your fellow employees. Perhaps this isn't hurting YOU...but it is hurting some! This is just one of so many skanky dealings. To get them VOTED out they must be exposed. Oh and I HAVE called the union on many issues dealing with contract violations...I've e mail Mr. Florez SEVERAL times and have NEVER ONCE let me say AGAIN...NEVER ONCE have I received a reply. Lastly
Pit union pres said NO to VP's request for working on Mother's day. He got it off anyway...now how did that happen?
I've always been able to apologise when when I think I've wrong someone. So Pin head accept my apology. I liked this comment. No kissy your assy on this one. Perhaps we got off on the wrong butt. Just don't go a saying we have to pucker up...and I won't give in to my inner beast. Would you like a pillow? How about a shedding blanket?

Bluewater,

What? Trickle down? The union officers are taking trips from the poor reserves? Sorry, wrong.... I have been on reserve my entire career, and since the inception of the ETB last year, I have not had less than 30 hours of ETB time. That's my choice. There is currently 81 pages of time to be picked up, PLENTY OF TIME FOR RESERVES. I have never seen less than 70 pages, even in the dead of January. Lots of one days, lots of Int'l, lots of weekday trips, lots of weekend trips. Don't give me that BS that the Union people don't show "concern" for us because they utilize the ETB on FREE TIME just like everyone else (including those pesky B/H's!!!) If you are a reserve, and want to give up your days off to add to your time, then you can. It's really pretty simple.

I think that once again your beef is with:

1. Management for establishing this LTO (HORRIBLE) reserve system, and
2. The membership for voting it in.

Now we are upset that the union is using the ETB and "stealing" from the reserves? I think you want to re- direct your anger....

Thank you.

 

[aredeeyou22]

I think they have and it appears to be trust.

Piney,

With all due respect, I absolutely fail to see the "trust" that has been lost here. I am a reserve, I am not flying, I am struggling just like everyone else! So, how has AFA70 lost our trust? Because they dont hang their schedules up every week? Please, no Union official in any crew base does that. They are available (even on weekends from what I have found!), and ready to help. They are defending countless F/A's who are looking at Termination, and attending disciplinary hearings DAILY. We should be glad to have such a strong team on our side, TRUST ME.

You see, this reserve system we are currently working under is, as you know, horrid. We were dealt a really bad hand, and blame is being hurled wherever possible. (So duck! ) I understand the frustration, I just do not see the abuse here! According to someone, an officer who is a reserve happened to fly intl trips one month? So what! As long as he is putting his time in, the ETB is at his discretion. Period. I understand everyone is saying they are not putting their time in, but we all have yet to hear from AFA National, the FAA, President Bush, or whomever. TIme will tell, I suppose....

A "trust" issue? Absolutely not.

Thank you.

Oh yah: No, I am not a member of AFA70 or AFA at all.

 

[PITbull]

Piney,

With all due respect, I absolutely fail to see the "trust" that has been lost here. I am a reserve, I am not flying, I am struggling just like everyone else! So, how has AFA70 lost our trust? Because they dont hang their schedules up every week? Please, no Union official in any crew base does that. They are available (even on weekends from what I have found!), and ready to help. They are defending countless F/A's who are looking at Termination, and attending disciplinary hearings DAILY. We should be glad to have such a strong team on our side, TRUST ME.


Oh yah: No, I am not a member of AFA70 or AFA at all.

So, if you are not a member of AFA, how would you know? Trust you? Under what criteria? In other posts, you said thank god for Council 70, who are you thanking them on behalf of? Management? A neighbor? Friend? Congressman?

If they are so busy helping 2100 base f/a group, how can they be flying on ETB 3 days a week? One just has to deduce that "countless f/as" daily can't be so. The base has more outstanding grievances than anytime in history in any base. They need to be on these issues every single day, after all, they are receiving FULL MONTHLY FLIGHT PAY LOSS and they are only in the office (so they allege) 16 days a month.

The main issue is that ALL elected officers should be posting their schedules every single week on their respective websites...including the MECP.

That should be demanded by the members.

 

[aredeeyou22]

So, if you are not a member of AFA, how would you know? Trust you? Under what criteria? In other posts, you said thank god for Council 70, who are you thanking them on behalf of? Management? A neighbor? Friend? Congressman?

If they are so busy helping 2100 base f/a group, how can they be flying on ETB 3 days a week? One just has to deduce that "countless f/as" daily can't be so. The base has more outstanding grievances than anytime in history in any base. They need to be on these issues every single day, after all, they are receiving FULL MONTHLY FLIGHT PAY LOSS and they are only in the office (so they allege) 16 days a month.

The main issue is that ALL elected officers should be posting their schedules every single week on their respective websites...including the MECP.

That should be demanded by the members.

Pitbull,

You're right. Don't trust me. It's entirely probable that we (as F/A's) would be so much better off without the services of AFA70, or any branch of the union for that matter. I think you understood what I meant....

Are all of the officers flying 3 day ETB trips at once? Are they all flying together, conspiring to get paid 170+ hours for doing nothing? Doubt it....

Did you have your hours posted? If so, where? On the website? The crew room? I see no hours posted for any base on the website, and frankly, could not care less. Bottom line is they be available to me or get back to me within a reasonable amount of time.

Are the officers themselves saying they are in the office 16 days a month? If so, that is A LOT less than the CLT PIT DCA BOS LGA reps, correct? Just trying to understand.

Thank you.

PS: Never thanked "GOD" for AFA70, I said thank you for your service. GOD is a personal issue for most people, including me. Thanks.

 

[PITbull]

Pitbull,

You're right. Don't trust me. It's entirely probable that we (as F/A's) would be so much better off without the services of AFA70, or any branch of the union for that matter. I think you understood what I meant....

Are all of the officers flying 3 day ETB trips at once? Are they all flying together, conspiring to get paid 170+ hours for doing nothing? Doubt it....

Did you have your hours posted? If so, where? On the website? The crew room? I see no hours posted for any base on the website, and frankly, could not care less. Bottom line is they be available to me or get back to me within a reasonable amount of time.

Are the officers themselves saying they are in the office 16 days a month? If so, that is A LOT less than the CLT PIT DCA BOS LGA reps, correct? Just trying to understand.

Thank you.

PS: Never thanked "GOD" for AFA70, I said thank you for your service. GOD is a personal issue for most people, including me. Thanks.

You're double talking.

Are you, or are you not an AFA member?I'm just going by what you posted. "Available to you"? Why would they be available to you? You stated above you are not an AFA member? How are they serving your needs, pray tell?

Personally, The officers, and the ENTIRE membership knew where i was every single day. (I did not fly: or take an ETB trip ever while in the service of the union). I posted many times in E-lines what my hours were...every day, and on call and available to the ENTIRE membership every single weekend for 5 years.

Ask anyone if you know me.

If i walk the walk; I will talk the talk!

The oficers in the samller bases don't receive FULL FLIGHT PAY LOSS and have to fly for the company to get their time. They have NO office in the smaller bases.

 

[aredeeyou22]

You're double talking.

Are you, or are you not an AFA member?I'm just going by what you posted. "Available to you"? Why would they be available to you? You stated above you are not an AFA member? How are they serving your needs, pray tell?

Personally, The officers, and the ENTIRE membership knew where i was every single day. (I did not fly: or take an ETB trip ever while in the service of the union). I posted many times in E-lines what my hours were...every day, and on call and available to the ENTIRE membership every single weekend for 5 years.

Ask anyone if you know me.

If i walk the walk; I will talk the talk!

The oficers in the samller bases don't receive FULL FLIGHT PAY LOSS and have to fly for the company to get their time. They have NO office in the smaller bases.

Pitbull,

Sorry for the confusion. What I meant was I am not a member of the Union office. I am a RSV F/A in PHL. So, obviously, they are serving my needs.

Wow! You really went above and beyond! That is truly impressive, and I am sure your base feels the loss.

Let's just hope the MECP and AFA National sorts this issue out. I am sure we will be hearing from someone soon, if indeed the charges are valid!

Thank you.

 

[aredeeyou22]

Man O Man is there a lot of backpedaling and tap dancing going on here.

This is more fun than Jerry Springer. Judging from the tone and/or absense of certain posters it would appear that someones fingers are in the cookie jar.

You'll note the word "appear" and like I've preached on this thread ad nauseum that perception IS reality. Well the reality for many is that AFA70 is at worst corrupt and at best playing fast and loose with the rules for personal gain.

Is this true? I hope not. But if your only source of information is here, then what conclusion would you draw?

Bob,
I would hardly use this board as a "source of information." For Entertainment Purposes Only.

Thank you.

 

[Bluewater]

Bob,
I would hardly use this board as a "source of information." For Entertainment Purposes Only.

Thank you.

Not a source of information?!!! Not all is correct. But at least it makes you think. Then it's up to you to find the answers, to make changes, to change...things can always be made better.
Since I plead ignorance of the FAR in question. I've contacted both the FAA and AFA International. Joanie at the FAA told me she'll investigate the matter and get back to me. AFA said they were not familar with the FAR, however they "didn't like the sound" of what was going on.
As to apologising....for what? Questioning the ethics of the people who are in office that represent me? NO WAY! They are required to answer to us. In regards to "PITBUL". I had to call her Christmas Eve night several years ago. 9:30...she answered and had to keep putting me on hold as she was so busy. I also had her cell phone. Philly won't even show us their work schd. let alone give us a cell phone number. ANY e mail I sent her was answered within hours....Like I stated earlier...Mike has NEVER answered ANY of my e mails. The one letter I got from our illustrious leader (Ms.L )in PHL, questioning her release regarding cleaning and the 15 min after block in(i.e. block in time is NOT when the aircraft door opens..)was filled with nasty comments of 'who do you think you are, do I know you's' and a host of other comments that never addressed her mistake. That was my introduction to her. I must say...it left a nasty taste on my computer. My father work long years as a union VP. He found out that his best friend and fellow union member was a company spy. This man stood by while my father took pay cuts and with-stood lay offs. Hurting fellow employees. There is right and wrong. Sometimes in black and white...but mostly shades of gray. I think what they're doing is WRONG and from the look of things so do others....so why are they silent? Why aren't they defending, explaining, or just plain telling us to go to hades. :boring: But the silence...that speaks the loudest

 

[PITbull]

Aredee,

This board provides more facts than the E-lines, as evidenced by management that frequent this board and read what is posted more than they do customer complaints from Consumer affairs.

 

[aredeeyou22]

Aredee,

This board provides more facts than the E-lines, as evidenced by management that frequent this board and read what is posted more than they do customer complaints from Consumer affairs.

Pitbull,

Management frequents this board more than they read customer complaints from consumer affairs? What? Come on.... You are joking, right? Maybe that is part of the problem here at the 'ways.....


Bluewater,

Do you mean that you are upset that the union is silent on this message (fact) board, or are you upset that they are silent in general? Because I called to ask a question today, and was satisfied with the answer. They really know their stuff, and if they don't, they will find the answer for you. I am sorry that your experiences have not been the same.

Pitbull was "so busy" on Christmas Eve with questions, that she had to put you on hold?! My goodness, what dedication. Also, what a way to spend a Christmas Eve!

Thank you.

 

[hp_fa]

Pitbull was "so busy" on Christmas Eve with questions, that she had to put you on hold?! My goodness, what dedication. Also, what a way to spend a Christmas Eve!

I'm not sure that was as smart a thing to post as you thought. It does tend to show that PitBull was perhaps more dedicated to her folks and even the customers then you could imagine. Evan as an outsider I see that.