F/A agreement, list the concessions

[SparrowHawk]

You assume wrong . I know teddy she knows her stuff. I was there, you Hawk were not!!! I have not a clue why you are on this topic. Well will ask are questions at the road shows . It is for f/a's only and you must show your ID not for passengers. Over 6000 f/ a's .. and many many did not know her. The I know Teddy line has no merit here.

Sat in her office a few times myself. Made a few public appearances with her and to answer your question, I'm not telling anyone how to vote. My concern has always been what I believe to be the Achilles Heal of Labor and that is APATHY. Look at the voter turnout and sometimes it's below 50% and in this case the vote determines your income and working conditions for the next five years.

If you vote it down and use CHAOS or a all out strike, I'm totally OK with that course of action and would likely contribute to your strike fund. OTOH if you vote in favor then I don't want to hear how much it sucks.

I'm actively advocating one thing. READ the CONTRACT and decide. Then go make the effort and VOTE.

 

[diamondcutter]

Sat in her office a few times myself. Made a few public appearances with her and to answer your question, I'm not telling anyone how to vote. My concern has always been what I believe to be the Achilles Heal of Labor and that is APATHY. Look at the voter turnout and sometimes it's below 50% and in this case the vote determines your income and working conditions for the next five years.

If you vote it down and use CHAOS or a all out strike, I'm totally OK with that course of action and would likely contribute to your strike fund. OTOH if you vote in favor then I don't want to hear how much it sucks.

I'm actively advocating one thing. READ the CONTRACT and decide. Then go make the effort and VOTE.

You are not an employee here. Don't care where you sat and who with, as an officer of the union we sign confidentiality agreements so that things don't end up on a forum like this. Yes at one time I was an officer. You will never know how any of us will have voted so that does suck. You say you answered questions? Self'importance is a stinky cologne.

 

[SparrowHawk]

You will never know how any of us will have voted so that does suck. You say you answered questions?

Actually the results are pretty much public knowledge. They are published here in many cases.

My interest here frankly is self interest. I want a well compensated flight crew on both sides of the flight deck door, but F/A's in particular as the happier you are in your job, the happier I'll be in my seat. I realize not a very complex concept. Snarky comments along with the same smug arrogance as an executive is rather unbecoming as well. I'm tired of Sr Management watching the stock market and their options while ignoring their employees and the challenges they face at the Supermarket.

So please continue your verbal assault as you see fit. You want to insult someone who has actively supported AFA since I became a Frequent Flyer? Go for it. If I didn't respect what you folks do I wouldn't be here. I'm apparently a lot more tired of seeing the screwing you're getting than you are. You have to do the job and if you're OK with being treated the way you are, God Bless.

 

[ograc]

Wow! Guys conspiracy therories are just rampant..Amazing! Just know the contract and voice any concerns concerning mis types etc to the union!

I can confirm the "typos" that exist in the "final printed copy" of the Fleet Service CBA from the original tentative agreement reached with the IAM. At least 16 or more. One "typo" was discovered regarding compensation increases in the year 2012. Be vigilant on this issue with the company... very vigilant. It's a new trick in their bag of how to get over on the employees.

You have been warned,
ograc

 

[diamondcutter]

Actually the results are pretty much public knowledge. They are published here in many cases.

My interest here frankly is self interest. I want a well compensated flight crew on both sides of the flight deck door, but F/A's in particular as the happier you are in your job, the happier I'll be in my seat. I realize not a very complex concept. Snarky comments along with the same smug arrogance as an executive is rather unbecoming as well. I'm tired of Sr Management watching the stock market and their options while ignoring their employees and the challenges they face at the Supermarket.

So please continue your verbal assault as you see fit. You want to insult someone who has actively supported AFA since I became a Frequent Flyer? Go for it. If I didn't respect what you folks do I wouldn't be here. I'm apparently a lot more tired of seeing the screwing you're getting than you are. You have to do the job and if you're OK with being treated the way you are, God Bless.

Wow then I just don't understand . You say you support us yet at times you have made fun of us with "SNARKY" remarks . All flight attendants, no matter what the pay will have good ones and bad ones . They are at every airline and in every large group. The posting of the results is as a breakdown not the individual. Back to topic for the f/a's... Try to attend the roadshows with you questions.

 

[SparrowHawk]

to attend the roadshows with you questions.

On this we can agree! I feel it's a must attend for anyone serious about their career.

 

[Onestep2flt]

What you said does not make sense. If you are aware of issues with the contract or it's language...why would you NOT alert someone who can make a difference instead of coming onto a chat board to point them out???? If it makes no sense then usually it isnt true? Do us all a favor...if you have a gift for finding things in a contract that would damage YOU and your fellow co workers....Let the union know instead of stirring the pot on here.....

O.K., don't want to fall in your trap of changing the subject. The subject by the way is list the concessions! As much as I should not because it takes away from the true conversation, I find myself thinking once again responding.

What does not make sense to you? We are trying to list possible concessions for the flight attendant tentative agreement. When did I say I did not alert anyone to any possible problems? In fact I believe I thanked you for putting this info out for others to be able to do the same if they so choose. Why would someone not also use alternative means to communicate with others what you have found? Are you like Kim Jong Il back from the grave? If we can just control this inter-web thingy and tell people when to cry......... Come on now, the people who can make a difference are the people that have to live with this agreement for the next five and most likely several years more until another agreement comes along. You say to let the union know. What do you think I am doing? The MEMBERS are the union!! I think sometimes your leadership forgets that. I am not sure why you believe sharing information with folks on this site is stirring the pot. I have not told anyone how to vote. If you have followed this board at all, you may note that I can admit when I am wrong. The info I share is the same info everyone here has to read so it is not like I am pulling this stuff out of thin air. If I am not certain of something, I have always made that very clear. I am not an expert nor do I claim to be. I am just a person with lots of questions and share ideas and opinions like everyone else here. The union can't live in a vacuum. If you think my opinions are not in line with the establishment I hear that MyFace thing is really out of control!

I guess the only way this get back on topic and have an intelligent conversation is to put it out there like galley princess.

 

[galley princess]

Not to rain on anyone's parade but I respectfully submit that everything everyone needs to know is already there in black and white.

What you'll be held to by scheduling and the company is the written document. (Obviously the damn thing should have been edited properly.)

While I understand that undoubtedly it will be interesting to hear the trials and tribulations of this thing in the making, at the end of the day it's poor work.

"The Union" would have you believe that we'll fall off of a cliff if this doesn't pass, but the reality is, US is pursuing a merger, and despite all efforts to the contrary can't shake the poster child image of merger incompetence given the fact that they haven't finished this one. Even if they do fail at another merger, they are still profitable and NOT in bankruptcy.

What else do F/As need to know? F/As have the right to negotiate a fair deal and REJECT an unfair one. Negotiating is not an act of labor revolt, by the way. It's standard business practice, if on a large scale. EVERY worker negotiates for a higher salary. That ours is done through a union is simply the nature of the airline beast. It DOESN"T mean you're a bad employee, it doesn't mean you're oblivious to competition and business reality. It means that a corporation needs to compensate fairly, and if it can't then does it really belong in the business market?

Concessions of this magnitude without proper compensation are unwarranted.

This is not an industry leading contract. We didn't ask for that, we're not delusional as to the current climate, however industry standard is well within the bounds of reason.

By all means, go to the roadshows, but while you're there, ask yourselves why and how are they selling this? Does being at the roadshows change the language or the nature of what was given up?

The most important question for me is what are the procedures when / if it is voted down? What happens? Can new negotiators be installed? Facts, not hyperbole. Contracts are voted down and the sky doesn't fall. What are the technical steps?

 

[SparrowHawk]

What else do F/As need to know? F/As have the right to negotiate a fair deal and REJECT an unfair one. Negotiating is not an act of labor revolt, by the way. It's standard business practice, if on a large scale. EVERY worker negotiates for a higher salary. That ours is done through a union is simply the nature of the airline beast. It DOESN"T mean you're a bad employee, it doesn't mean you're oblivious to competition and business reality. It means that a corporation needs to compensate fairly, and if it can't then does it really belong in the business market?

THANK YOU for saying what should be obvious to even a casual observer, it JUST business pure and simple. Really no different than Coke saying to US "We'll sell you xxxxxx 12oz cans of Coke at X cents per can." just as US can go to the AFA and say "we'll pay $xx per hour per F/A" US can say "No" and make a counter offer to Coke and the AFA. Only difference is they can't change bargaining agents like they could switch to Pepsi.

 

[Be Careful What You Wish For.]

The most important question for me is what are the procedures when / if it is voted down? What happens? Can new negotiators be installed?

My understanding is that it is a slow process.

 

[Glucose Intolerant]

You assume wrong . I know teddy she knows her stuff. I was there, you Hawk were not!!! I have not a clue why you are on this topic. Well will ask are questions at the road shows . It is for f/a's only and you must show your ID not for passengers. Over 6000 f/ a's .. and many many did not know her. The I know Teddy line has no merit here. For the record US was NOT very very frightened ...they guaranteed it would pass.

Teddy brought a contract in Bankruptcy post 9-11 and she certainly knows her stuff. She attained better rates in a BK contract than currently on the West.

The Flight Attendants (the 38% that bothered to vote) feared the company would shut down, and voted in favor of the contract. Would the company have really shut down? No one knows for sure - but it seems doubtful. What is known, without the merger both US and AWA would have both gone out of business.

So a merger took place instead of liquidation and the employees were held hostage in BK contracts while the company made record profits.
Yet, now the company wants another concessionary contract (with a five year duration) by calling it "industry standard"?

I guess concessions are still needed to bring the West up to parity and fund yet another (possible) merger?
No thanks. I have already given at the office.

You can't blame Teddy (or the union) for the last contract. Blame naivete and the same ignorance being displayed today.
Only things you can blame the union for is:

1) the JNC
2) not eliminating the LTO language when PBS wasn't implemented.

That's it.

People can blame Teddy and the union all they want for the last contract - but that blame lies squarely on the membership (the ones that bothered to vote).
Blame only yourself if this TA gets ratified in it's current form. The membership will be responsible for selling themselves and the rest of the industry short, not the union.
At least one LEC had the !@#$$ to go on record and warn the membership in advance.
Go to the road shows, ask questions, and decide for yourself.

 

[Be Careful What You Wish For.]

Blame only yourself if this TA gets ratified in it's current form.

Blame yourself for not getting a raise.

Blame yourself for staying on BK wages.

Blame yourself for staying on the current reserve system.

Blame yourself for not getting 100% sick pay.

Blame yourself for not being able to transfer system wide.

Blame yourself for not getting Lead & B pay.

Blame yourself if you are not any better off than you were in 1984.

Or, just blame the "Union".

Are you tired of being on this BANKRUPTCY contract or would you like to stay on it for a few more years?

I don't want to stay on a BK contract. How long has it been?

Times up.

We ALL need more money AND our work rules back, NOW!

If you think this is a bad contract take a look at what AA wants from their F/A's.

And by the way, this contract only gets better if a merger is in the works.

This contract is important but the next one mAAy be even MORE important.

Do you want to wait on our current wages to find out?

I want to improve my standard of living!

 

[galley princess]

Blame yourself for not getting a raise.

Blame yourself for staying on BK wages.

Blame yourself for staying on the current reserve system.

Blame yourself for not getting 100% sick pay.

Blame yourself for not being able to transfer system wide.

Blame yourself for not getting Lead & B pay.

Blame yourself if you are not any better off than you were in 1984.

Or, just blame the "Union".

Are you tired of being on this BANKRUPTCY contract or would you like to stay on it for a few more years?

I don't want to stay on a BK contract. How long has it been?

Times up.

We ALL need more money AND our work rules back, NOW!

If you think this is a bad contract take a look at what AA wants from their F/A's.

And by the way, this contract only gets better if a merger is in the works.

This contract is important but the next one mAAy be even MORE important.

Do you want to wait on our current wages to find out?

I want to improve my standard of living!

Let's be clear?

You want me to compare this TA to the proposal that an airline in BANKRUPTCY is offering their F/As?

Been there done that.

NOT TODAY'S REALITY.

So NO. I will not compare their late repeat of what I already endured.

Today's reality is that you work for a company who is making profits. There is no earthly reason that they cannot pay industry standard and if they do want huge changes in scheduling and how F/As fly, they need to create incentives to gain such changes, which by the way do not necessarily have to translate to pay rates. They could get those changes by improving my work life and establishing industry standard staffing, tools and rest areas. (Admittedly, those do come down to money).

But why, when they have a JNC that is willing to hand it over for free?

The only variable is whether F/As will read this thing for what it is, which is a pile of concessions with zero gain, just a shuffling of value cards, or they'll be dazzled by a less than $5 raise.

Please keep in mind that the very reason you're willing to be sucked into this is due to how bad our BANKRUPTCY contract was.

We are no longer there. You deserve better.

 

[usfliboi]

Let's be clear?

You want me to compare this TA to the proposal that an airline in BANKRUPTCY is offering their F/As?

Been there done that.

NOT TODAY'S REALITY.

So NO. I will not compare their late repeat of what I already endured.

Today's reality is that you work for a company who is making profits. There is no earthly reason that they cannot pay industry standard and if they do want huge changes in scheduling and how F/As fly, they need to create incentives to gain such changes, which by the way do not necessarily have to translate to pay rates. They could get those changes by improving my work life and establishing industry standard staffing, tools and rest areas. (Admittedly, those do come down to money).

But why, when they have a JNC that is willing to hand it over for free?

The only variable is whether F/As will read this thing for what it is, which is a pile of concessions with zero gain, just a shuffling of value cards, or they'll be dazzled by a less than $5 raise.

Please keep in mind that the very reason you're willing to be sucked into this is due to how bad our BANKRUPTCY contract was.

We are no longer there. You deserve better.

Princess....(How appropriate after reading your post) What have you endured you poor thing? Why do some people do the same job as you but see it a different way? What about this contract is NOT industry standard? Please give details because we all wanna understand your thought process. Is it perfect? NOPE! You are not..will not..never ever get a perfect working condition....If you think you will go there!

 

[Whatnow?]

Princess....(How appropriate after reading your post) What have you endured you poor thing? Why do some people do the same job as you but see it a different way? What about this contract is NOT industry standard? Please give details because we all wanna understand your thought process. Is it perfect? NOPE! You are not..will not..never ever get a perfect working condition....If you think you will go there!

This T/A is soo Industry Standard....how can anybody reading it not see especially with the comparisons from the OAL out with it too. Here's a probable scenario taking shape more and more everyday......US F/A's vote this T/A down......it gets sent back to he negotiating table......the NMB puts this process into recess......3-5 years or more go by until the Co has time to renogotiate with the US F/A's after completing a merger with AA.......SAME proposal is sent back to the US F/A's once again. So, at that point you've lost years of some add'l pay and some some work improvements all for nothing and with an impending possibility of a loss of seniority with a merge with AA F/A's who are larger in numbers and with an entirely different Union....ironically, this new T/A is closely mirrored to what the AA F/A's are being faced with now through their reorganization.....odd or not.....could this be a real possibility? Just an opinion.