February FA Attrition

[kirkpatrick]

They had developed multiple ways during their past negotiations with TWA to avoid furloughs with other cost neutral concessions.

Two very obvious solutions come to mind, although I'm not saying they either originated at TWA or were exclusive to TWA. One is an open-ended leave program. UA has that, and had very few involuntary furloughs because of it. Some 1300 AA FA's went on OVL's but were forced to return after a year. Many might have stayed out voluntarily if allowed, and others might have wished a few months or a year off if it had been offered.

Another good idea is a recall bypass option. A recalled furloughee could bypass recall while keeping recall rights, maybe waiting for a certain base to open up or for whatever reason. This allowed someone who really wanted to come back to flying to do so.

Both the above ideas are usually cost beneficial, or at least cost neutral to the company, as they involve senior people remaining out on leaves while junior people fly.

Everybody wins, and it doesn't hurt employee morale, either. And good morale doesn't hurt the company.

MK

 

[nbmcg01]

Two very obvious solutions come to mind, although I'm not saying they either originated at TWA or were exclusive to TWA. One is an open-ended leave program. UA has that, and had very few involuntary furloughs because of it. Some 1300 AA FA's went on OVL's but were forced to return after a year. Many might have stayed out voluntarily if allowed, and others might have wished a few months or a year off if it had been offered.

Another good idea is a recall bypass option. A recalled furloughee could bypass recall while keeping recall rights, maybe waiting for a certain base to open up or for whatever reason. This allowed someone who really wanted to come back to flying to do so.

Both the above ideas are usually cost beneficial, or at least cost neutral to the company, as they involve senior people remaining out on leaves while junior people fly.

Everybody wins, and it doesn't hurt employee morale, either. And good morale doesn't hurt the company.

MK

Another option is not to reduce your customer service to bare bones staffing. But the most important fact is that the APFA ALLOWED AA to set the value for each concession and dictate the actual contract provisions. Absurd when someone is WILLING to give you $340,000,000.

 

[chillers]

I was only talking about flight attendants and what the APFA did to the former TW flight attendants. Someone else posted on here that DL gave the Pan Am flight attendants proportional seniority. So, it sounds like one of you is either wrong OR you are talking about two different periods of time--when DL bought the routes from Pan Am and after Pan Am went belly up.

I don't care what happened with the pilots or mechanics or other unionized groups. From what I can tell they all got a much fairer deal from the AA unions. Not perfect, but certainly more fair than stapled to the bottom of the seniority list.

:huh:

 

[FA Mikey]

The typical AA flight attendant is so wrapped up in himself/herself that I can't even convince them to clean up after themselves and leave a neat galley for the next flight attendant to use it. Why should I waste my time trying to convince them of the fairness or unfairness of the SIA.
I believe in the old saying, "Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and it annoys the pig."

Makes me wonder sometimes how they get a service done. Galleys often looks like a tornado has gone through, with linens, glass and silverware in the most unusual places.

As long as there have been unions in this country, and especially since the AFL-CIO was founded, the standard in mergers and acquisitions between two unionized workforces has been Date of Hire or some variation on that. All the other unions in the United States have managed to survive and the workforces get along.

The way another carrier SWA does it. Offers each employee an interview, those selected to stay on get Date of acquisition as a date of hire for SWA purposes.

Besides, if almighty John Ward and his minions had been willing to listen to the suggestions (based upon experience) from the former TW flight attendants during negotiations for the RPA, there wouldn't have been any furloughs. They had developed multiple ways during their past negotiations with TWA to avoid furloughs with other cost neutral concessions.

If JW had taken any responsibility or initiative to be prepared for the inevitable concessions. We would have had a slight leg up and walked away with something less than the screw job we did.

 

[TWAnr]

But there is a small cadre who spend their time BSing in the galley with other F/As or sit on the jump seat reading.

I was flying in first out of EGE a few weeks ago. As we were boarding through the L2 door, the first class flight attendant was not even aware that there were passengers aboard and was still seating in seat 1A reading a book. It then seemed as if she was trying to finish a chapter before getting around to hanging coats and offering drinks. The service on the rest of the flight was just as uninspired. I cannot say that I was impressed. On the other hand, a while back on flights from LAX to LHR and back, also in F, the service was impeccable.

 

[jimntx]

Makes me wonder sometimes how they get a service done. Galleys often looks like a tornado has gone through, with linens, glass and silverware in the most unusual places.

Mike, I wasn't talking about during the service. I'm talking about when I get on an airplane that has just been vacated by f/as from certain bases--DFW, MIA, and SFO come to mind--and there is coffee burned in the bottom of the pot because rinsing the pot, or turning off the heat underneath the almost empty pot was entirely too much trouble or "not my job." Or, how about when you get on the plane and the counters are sticky from spilled food or drinks that could have easily been wiped up if done BEFORE it dried.
Or, a coffee filter bag had burst, but they left the basket and the pot full of coffee grounds.

Or you find in the small cubby on the S80 next to the coffee pots where you keep your service items...

3 ice mallets
4 corkscrews
a week old Star magazine
3 connecting gate lists going back 2 days
armed passenger/um/PIL paperwork from the previous 2 legs.

But, no sugar, equal, stir sticks, water or juice.

Cleaning the galley after use is not that hard.

For that matter, I'm also tired of having to clean planes that I have just boarded--this usually happens in DFW--because the inbound crew that had the C-Bill couldn't be bothered with following the contract and cleaning the d*mn plane. I had this happen twice a few months ago with a VERY senior SFO crew that we were always taking the plane out of DFW that they brought in. The 3rd week, I met them at the a/c door and asked if they had cleaned. The #1 looked at me with a fake puzzled look and said, "Oh, were we supposed to clean?" And, they went back and cleaned the plane.

It was a through flight that they brought from AUS to DFW and we were taking it to STL--the inbound leg was well within the 1100 mile limit for a C-Bill. Beside that, it was printed very clearly on the final paperwork out of AUS (the #1, as stated above, left her paperwork in the galley rather than throw it away). The most junior member of the crew had a seniority number below 10,000. Don't tell me they don't know how to read the paperwork.

 

[nbmcg01]

Mike, I wasn't talking about during the service. I'm talking about when I get on an airplane that has just been vacated by f/as from certain bases--DFW, MIA, and SFO come to mind--and there is coffee burned in the bottom of the pot because rinsing the pot, or turning off the heat underneath the almost empty pot was entirely too much trouble or "not my job." Or, how about when you get on the plane and the counters are sticky from spilled food or drinks that could have easily been wiped up if done BEFORE it dried.
Or, a coffee filter bag had burst, but they left the basket and the pot full of coffee grounds.

Or you find in the small cubby on the S80 next to the coffee pots where you keep your service items...

3 ice mallets
4 corkscrews
a week old Star magazine
3 connecting gate lists going back 2 days
armed passenger/um/PIL paperwork from the previous 2 legs.

But, no sugar, equal, stir sticks, water or juice.

Cleaning the galley after use is not that hard.

For that matter, I'm also tired of having to clean planes that I have just boarded--this usually happens in DFW--because the inbound crew that had the C-Bill couldn't be bothered with following the contract and cleaning the d*mn plane. I had this happen twice a few months ago with a VERY senior SFO crew that we were always taking the plane out of DFW that they brought in. The 3rd week, I met them at the a/c door and asked if they had cleaned. The #1 looked at me with a fake puzzled look and said, "Oh, were we supposed to clean?" And, they went back and cleaned the plane.

It was a through flight that they brought from AUS to DFW and we were taking it to STL--the inbound leg was well within the 1100 mile limit for a C-Bill. Beside that, it was printed very clearly on the final paperwork out of AUS (the #1, as stated above, left her paperwork in the galley rather than throw it away). The most junior member of the crew had a seniority number below 10,000. Don't tell me they don't know how to read the paperwork.

Jim, you bring up another good point. F/as are not aircraft cleaners. The ramp class and craft ought to be screaming their heads off. I'm not talking about every flight picking up befor landing and general neatness but under no circumstances should the f/as be cleaning aircraft!!!! My personal favorite was MCO-STL-SEA. Plane change in STL and 20 wheelchairs and unaccompanied minors. Inbound arrived at the D Concourse, outbound went out of the farthest C Concourse, 50 min ground time..... (757) I always called and asked for the In-Flight FSMs to come clean the inbound and babysit the special needs. (so of course we could be on time for our full SEA leg)

 

[jimntx]

...but under no circumstances should the f/as be cleaning aircraft!!!!

You're preaching to the choir, Nancy. But as I have said many times...After 5000 years of fighting among those Semitic first cousins, there should be peace in the Middle East. And, we have to deal with what is not what should be.

F/As cleaning on through flights is a current contractual fact of life--agreed to by the f/as long before I came to AA. And, if my mole at Centerport has the right info, the company is going to push for more a/c cleaning by the f/as in the next contract negotiations. In fact, my source says that their opener is going to be that the f/as clean every leg a la Southwest.

The ramp class is not screaming because they don't want to clean the a/c either. It was only after 9/11 that the company eliminated all the a/c cleaner positions and the rampers had to start cleaning as well as handle the baggage.

Moreover, if my observations of slightly more than 5 years at AA are accurate, getting the unions at AA to work/act/negotiate in concert is about as easy as herding cats. The "you are first, after me" philosophy reigns supreme.

 

[nbmcg01]

You're preaching to the choir, Nancy. But as I have said many times...After 5000 years of fighting among those Semitic first cousins, there should be peace in the Middle East. And, we have to deal with what is not what should be.

F/As cleaning on through flights is a current contractual fact of life--agreed to by the f/as long before I came to AA. And, if my mole at Centerport has the right info, the company is going to push for more a/c cleaning by the f/as in the next contract negotiations. In fact, my source says that their opener is going to be that the f/as clean every leg a la Southwest.

The ramp class is not screaming because they don't want to clean the a/c either. It was only after 9/11 that the company eliminated all the a/c cleaner positions and the rampers had to start cleaning as well as handle the baggage.

Moreover, if my observations of slightly more than 5 years at AA are accurate, getting the unions at AA to work/act/negotiate in concert is about as easy as herding cats. The "you are first, after me" philosophy reigns supreme.

I understand that it is contractual. I guess the ramp union is not interested in another erosion of their jobs which equals more furloughs.

 

[jimntx]

I understand that it is contractual. I guess the ramp union is not interested in another erosion of their jobs which equals more furloughs.

I don't think they see it that way. From their viewpoint, getting the f/as to do more cleaning would reduce their workload, not their numbers.

 

[eolesen]

I don't think they see it that way. From their viewpoint, getting the f/as to do more cleaning would reduce their workload, not their numbers.

Having done analysis on this in the past, you're correct that the headcount savings is minimal from expanding the use of FA's to clean turns and thru's. Any headcount savings from the C BOW were realized at the hubs many years ago, so there's not much else to be gained.

The bigger advantage of this is at the spokes, and is focused on reducing turn times (SWA's biggest cost advantage over other airlines).

Today, cabin cleaning has to be done between bag offload and onload. At most spoke stations, the FA's aren't doing much in-between segments; using that time to pick up visible trash in the aisles and seatbacks would allow boarding to begin earlier, and shorten the turn times accordingly. Lavs would still be wiped down by FSC's.

If you shave ten or fifteen minutes off every spoke turn, you wind up with time that can be used for more maintenance or incremental flying without having to add aircraft. The potential downside is that it could allow the current schedule to be operated with fewer aircraft, thus fewer pilots and flight attendants...

Something else that's gone unspoken in the discussion of expanding BOB and double-provisioning -- fewer opportunities for galley trash removal. I'd think that if that work were given to the TWU, it might offset any potential reduction in work.

 

[twaokc]

The mouth speaks again

Having done analysis on this in the past, you're correct that the headcount savings is minimal from expanding the use of FA's to clean turns and thru's. Any headcount savings from the C BOW were realized at the hubs many years ago, so there's not much else to be gained.

The bigger advantage of this is at the spokes, and is focused on reducing turn times (SWA's biggest cost advantage over other airlines).

Today, cabin cleaning has to be done between bag offload and onload. At most spoke stations, the FA's aren't doing much in-between segments; using that time to pick up visible trash in the aisles and seatbacks would allow boarding to begin earlier, and shorten the turn times accordingly. Lavs would still be wiped down by FSC's.

If you shave ten or fifteen minutes off every spoke turn, you wind up with time that can be used for more maintenance or incremental flying without having to add aircraft. The potential downside is that it could allow the current schedule to be operated with fewer aircraft, thus fewer pilots and flight attendants...

Something else that's gone unspoken in the discussion of expanding BOB and double-provisioning -- fewer opportunities for galley trash removal. I'd think that if that work were given to the TWU, it might offset any potential reduction in work.

 

[eolesen]

The mouth speaks again

And it appears that so did the sphincter...

 

[jimntx]

Could we please have a civil discussion without getting personal? Whether you or I or anyone else happen to agree on a subject does NOT necessarily mean that one of us is right and one is wrong. We just have different viewpoints.

Back when I was a consultant I was working with a bunch of managers in a facilitated session (I was the facilitator). Two of the managers almost came to blows in an argument about some issue within the company. They were literally screaming at each other, and I was a total failure at bringing order back to the room.

Suddenly, one of the women managers stepped between them and yelled at both of them to shut up. They were both so shocked they sat down. Before returning to her seat, she calmly said, "You two jerks should try listening on occasion. You are both arguing the same side of the issue."