Fireworks and drama in manhattan...

[Anomaly]

And another impressive posting from the peanut gallery that earns you the name "TWU Stooge".

Now I am really confused? In another subject you proclaimed your support for the TWU...

Which side are you on Informer?

 

[FWAAA]

Now I am really confused? In another subject you proclaimed your support for the TWU...

Which side are you on Informer?

Trolltastic!

 

[2ndGENAMT]

No, they say publicly that no more money will be on the table. What do you expect them to say? Saying anything else would not only weaken their bargaining stance, but also open the door to grievances from other groups for "me too" claims. All the company has to do is "re-value" concessions given in other areas and/or grossly undervalue gains made in re-negotiated areas and voila! "No extra value was given to the pilots".

You actually think AA management or the UCC would openly ADMIT giving the APA extra items?



Well duh. That's their job. The question is, what will cost them more - throwing a few crumbs to APA or the operational meltdown that is about to befall the airline.



Then there will be no deal. No deal means at the very least a delayed exit from BK. Harder if not impossible for AA management to float an accurate POR or business plan for consolidation. How many banks would be willing to put money on the line for an airline that could be the next Eastern? How many other airlines' management teams want to be responsible for attaching their airline to the anchor of the Titanic?



Actually, it was written very poorly for labor groups and has enough "outs" and loopholes for management large enough to fly a 777 through. You will find that out later.

Read this Overspeed, Fluf is spot on and no amount of spin can refute it!!

 

[Overspeed]

Read this Overspeed, Fluf is spot on and no amount of spin can refute it!!

This one is easy. All parties are in BK court and everything that is agreed to is public record.

Any operational meltdown will be short lived. What happened at NW, DL, UA, and US. A bump and then back to normal. US went to the best on time performance within a few years after BK2. I think you are a little over the top in thinking AA will crater. Yeah we are all upset but give it time. When the OT flows, new planes show up, and some fleet growth occurs, all will be smooth again. Yes the whole deal sucks but it is not like we did not know this could happen. Page back a few years and understand, BK was not a threat was it?

 

[Overspeed]

Great follow up to the UCC and Butler's comments about the APA and AA needing to reach a consensual deal.

"We’ve also made it very clear from the committee’s perspective – we’ve told American and we’ve told the APA – that there’s no additional economic value beyond the current company offers that can be provided to the company’s labor organizations. To do so would endanger American’s reorganization. It would also endanger the economics and the rights of non-union creditors and parties in interest."

http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/2012/09/jack-butler-talks-consensual-agreements-short-fuses-equity-stakes-and-other-matters-in-american-airlines-bankruptcy-case.html/

 

[Mach85ER]

What do you expect him to say about the pilots? "Geeee, we might think about more money, and every pilot should make an area in their front yards for bunnies and a pet unicorn courtesy of the UCC"

He screwed up and he's throwing up the bad arse tough lawyer revison.

 

[eolesen]

What's said isn't as important as what's written.

This is from a filing by the UCC today with the court, approving the TWU and APFA ratifications:

While it is the Committee's expectation that consensual labor agreements should be achieved with all labor organizations before the Debtors file their plan of reorganization—which result is in the best interests of all stakeholders—the Committee also recognizes that, if it is not possible to secure ratified consensual agreements on appropriate terms with APA at American Airlines or the labor organizations at American Eagle, the Debtors may propose and prosecute a plan of reorganization while operating under abrogated collective bargaining agreements and imposed terms of employment that become the new status quo under the Railway Labor Act.

(emphasis added)

 

[Hopeful]

What's said isn't as important as what's written.

This is from a filing by the UCC today with the court, approving the TWU and APFA ratifications:

(emphasis added)

But there are still people out there still believing consensual agreements are necessary to exit BK...

 

[eolesen]

Apparently, the only thing required is a new status quo, regardless if it was met consensually or via abrogation...

I still maintain that consensual works out best, but the pilots, some employees at Eagle, and a few disappointed-with-the-vote-outcome folks here feel otherwise. That's OK -- you leave with the one that brought ya....

 

[Bob Owens]

This one is easy. All parties are in BK court and everything that is agreed to is public record.

Any operational meltdown will be short lived. What happened at NW, DL, UA, and US. A bump and then back to normal. US went to the best on time performance within a few years after BK2. I think you are a little over the top in thinking AA will crater. Yeah we are all upset but give it time. When the OT flows, new planes show up, and some fleet growth occurs, all will be smooth again. Yes the whole deal sucks but it is not like we did not know this could happen. Page back a few years and understand, BK was not a threat was it?

How did Pan Am and EAL do?

When US, DL and UA went through BK they landed at around where AA already was. They all already make more than we do.

As far as "on time" those numbers are under the companies control, they can spin them. Sure the OT will flow, and when it does its because a plane that should be out there flying and generating revenue is sitting in a hangar, no delays just cancellations, or the company will have to underutilize their fleet and keep spares around the system.

 

[Bob Owens]

I still maintain that consensual works out best, but the pilots, some employees at Eagle, and a few disappointed-with-the-vote-outcome folks here feel otherwise.

Best for whom? Not for us.

 

[TWU informer]

Apparently, the only thing required is a new status quo, regardless if it was met consensually or via abrogation...

I still maintain that consensual works out best, but the pilots, some employees at Eagle, and a few disappointed-with-the-vote-outcome folks here feel otherwise. That's OK -- you leave with the one that brought ya....

"Consensual agreements are best" has been the flavor of the day in every bankruptcy, but no work group has ever taken the non-consensul agreement path all the way the limit. Therefore, you and others have to use words like "apparently" and "I maintain", or some other words that inidicate this issue if far from set in stone. At some point, some "union" will have to take this all the way. And the APA membership is in the best position to do just that and codify by advancing further the legal aspects of this anti-worker, pro-greedy investor law. In other words everyone seems to agree that the APA is already in uncharted waters as far as this law goes, and truth be known, both legally and debtor needs, it is still early in the fight. The fight needs to be advanced, why not the APA and why not at AA?

 

[Hopeful]

"Consensual agreements are best" has been the flavor of the day in every bankruptcy, but no work group has ever taken the non-consensul agreement path all the way the limit. Therefore, you and others have to use words like "apparently" and "I maintain", or some other words that inidicate this issue if far from set in stone. At some point, some "union" will have to take this all the way. And the APA membership is in the best position to do just that and codify by advancing further the legal aspects of this anti-worker, pro-greedy investor law. In other words everyone seems to agree that the APA is already in uncharted waters as far as this law goes, and truth be known, both legally and debtor needs, it is still early in the fight. The fight needs to be advanced, why not the APA and why not at AA?

Be sure to read the next to last pararagraph.

http://finance.yahoo...-182617274.html

Of course it is entirely possible the pilots can still get a consensual deal before this all said and done with.

And if they do, and if they get "anything" better than the rest of us...so be it.

 

[TWU informer]

Be sure to read the next to last pararagraph.

http://finance.yahoo...-182617274.html

Of course it is entirely possible the pilots can still get a consensual deal before this all said and done with.

And if they do, and if they get "anything" better than the rest of us...so be it.

You still do not get it:

Here is your paragpraph that causes fear and worry in your mind:
"The committee said it expects voluntary agreements with all labor groups. But if a deal with pilots isn't possible, the committee said, AMR could "propose and prosecute" a reorganization plan without one. "

If and when a Plan of Reoganization is approved, then negotations and authority moves from the Bankruptcy Laws back the the Railway Labor Act, under the Railway Labor Act the APA would claim that the "status quo" has been unilaterally changed by the employer, this creates an opened the door for arguement of self help under the Railway Labor Act.

The legal question is "Which Law trumps"? The Railway Labor Act of 1926 or the 1113 of the Bankruptcy Law.
Without consensual agreement, then my opinion is that whichever is governing the process. Sure the APA is under the 1113 process now, but not once the POR is approved and the BK law is no longer governing. Therefore the RLA takes over and then everything changes.

This is when the final rounds of the fight begin. By then, AA and the APA will be so at odds with each other, the only means of survival will be NEW MANGEMENT, and real negotiations under the Railway Labor Act.

You on the other hand, believe that 1113 and BK Law is the end game. It is not. Not by a long shot.

Remind me to never follow you into a battle with greedy corporate management.

Every piece of legal advice given during the last view months to all unions has been strictly advice about the Bankruptcy Law, but once a POR is approved, the Railway Labor Act once again is the governing law and really in my mind, always has been.
This Bankruptcy Law is a temporary reorganization law, not one where a company with $4.5 Billion can circumvent the Railway Labor Act because the employees would not hand over their pensions voluntarily after being screwed, lied too, and shafted by management of the Corporation.

Get a clue. Sorry, I dont know wany other way to put it.
But at least think in long terms and about ALL Legislation and how screwed up the laws are, then stop focusing on one single law and look at the global fight and what law governs in each round of the battle.

I still say that APA and AA are only in early rounds of what could be a lengthy and ugly fight. It is up to management and how they intend to treat and recognize the professionals of the APA.

 

[Hopeful]

You still do not get it:

Here is your paragpraph that causes fear and worry in your mind:
"The committee said it expects voluntary agreements with all labor groups. But if a deal with pilots isn't possible, the committee said, AMR could "propose and prosecute" a reorganization plan without one. "

If and when a Plan of Reoganization is approved, then negotations and authority moves from the Bankruptcy Laws back the the Railway Labor Act, under the Railway Labor Act the APA would claim that the "status quo" has been unilaterally changed by the employer, this creates opens the dorr for self help under the Railway Labor Act.

The legal question is "Which Law trumps"? The Railway Labor Act of 1926 or the 1113 of the Bankruptcy Law.

This is when the final rounds of the fight begin. By then, AA and the APA will be so at odds with each other, the only means of survival will be NEW MANGEMENT, and real negotiations under the Railway Labor Act.

You on the other hand, believe that 1113 and BK Law is the end game. It is not. Not by a long shot.

Remind me to never follow you into a battle with management.

I guess only YOU get it.

I don't see the company BEGGING the APA to resume negotiations...
Since the pilots have been abrogated, and AA exits BK and pilots now revert back to the NMB and railway labor act.....negotiations essentialy begin again and could drag on for months, maybe years once more..

NOBODY KNOWS WHAT WILL HAPPEN...

Including YOU!



Please post your law credentials when you get a chance.