First 757 to outsourced MRO

[MCI transplant]

Are you suggesting or indicating that any AA aircraft could or would fare better if not meeting its AA OH Heavy check time, an open MCI OH could be used to help improve the yields?

<_< ------ I'm not suggesting anything!------ You know, and so do I, that they're not going to reopen MCI! I just think it's more than a little ironic that they close MCI because they claim "overcapacity", and within a couple of years, decide they need to outsource this type of work, because they can't get it done with what they have! ------ Look, if they were really concerned about getting these aircraft out "on time", they never would have closed it down in the first place, but that's not it! It all came down to $$$, and in house politics!

 

[Buck]

<_< ------ I'm not suggesting anything!------ You know, and so do I, that they're not going to reopen MCI! I just think it's more than a little ironic that they close MCI because they claim "overcapacity", and within a couple of years, decide they need to outsource this type of work, because they can't get it done with what they have! ------ Look, if they were really concerned about getting these aircraft out "on time", they never would have closed it down. But that's not it! It all came down to $$$, and in house politics!

You are abosolutly correct. It is about money, more than ever. The biggest complaint AA had for insourcing maintenance in TUL OH, was that there was not enough space to bring in outside companies work. AA hired an analyst group that determined the insourcing of other companies airframe work would not be viable until AA could get their own work accomplished first. I am sure the union can answer why MCI wasn't able to perform the work of AA's cutomers. The cost of the facility has been shown to be reasonable by comparasion. Why not use MCI to produce revenue. The original closure was surely political, but today the politics have to become an afterthought.

 

[Birdman]

35 days would appear to be within the normal range.

And we all believe what the compAAny tells the public? I told you 24-25 days is reality with low morale. I understand the learning curve but 40% more time, so far, is pushing the envelope. I understand our pilots will be doing the ground runs and test hops. As thorough as our pilots are and if the MRO horror stories are remotely true, more delays are a given.

True statement. In fact AA has a "learning curve" calculated and it usually takes 15 checks before you get it down. The first check of a new fleet introduction can take up to 2.5 times as long the first time through compared to the 15th time. Nobody can do a job as fast as they can the first time as they can after they have learned the job.

If you worked in A/O you would laugh at this bologna. It took about twice as long (a month) to do the first 737 retro prototype with new mods and numerous engineering redlines. Within 2-3 more they were down to just over 2 weeks, not including the heavy or light checks done concurrently. The 757 is not a new fleet and certainly not new to Timco. The only truth in your statement is the last sentence.

Has Timco even done 757 heavy checks before AA??

According to their website they have experience on multiple fleets, including the 757.

 

[MCI transplant]

<_< ------ Buck, I've seen AA management walk away from millions $$$ in TWA assets because of in house politics, and differences in basic maintenance practices. I'm sorry, but now they are in BK I can't say I'm surprised.

 

[Overspeed]

And we all believe what the compAAny tells the public? I told you 24-25 days is reality with low morale. I understand the learning curve but 40% more time, so far, is pushing the envelope. I understand our pilots will be doing the ground runs and test hops. As thorough as our pilots are and if the MRO horror stories are remotely true, more delays are a given.


If you worked in A/O you would laugh at this bologna. It took about twice as long (a month) to do the first 737 retro prototype with new mods and numerous engineering redlines. Within 2-3 more they were down to just over 2 weeks, not including the heavy or light checks done concurrently. The 757 is not a new fleet and certainly not new to Timco. The only truth in your statement is the last sentence.


According to their website they have experience on multiple fleets, including the 757.

So doing a heavy with low morale is 25 days? It looks like AMR didn't care about low morale since they filed BK and started outsourcing work. We sure showed them. Yes AA crews will do test hops but for how long? Fleet managers have been pushing to have test hops done by line pilots and that HCFs are not necessary per the MPD. The only reason AA does them now is because the APA has pushed for it. How much you want a bet that goes away? All the top performing airlines outsource their heavy overhaul now we seem destined to join them thanks to us "showing" them whose the boss.

I did laugh at it. I am just saying AA knows the first check would not get done in peak time. Also, the airline is reducing ASM which means they will need fewer flight hours out of aircraft. Once the schedule is caught up, turn time will not be as critical. Again, we showed them.

The AA package is different that others. When we did the AS 737s if you remember the paper work was a pain. The work wasn't the problem, working with a new customer was.

These arguments will work well in BK as to why AA should keep work in house I am sure. Keep coming up with them, Bob Owens will need the ammo in court.

 

[Buck]

So doing a heavy with low morale is 25 days? It looks like AMR didn't care about low morale since they filed BK and started outsourcing work. We sure showed them. Yes AA crews will do test hops but for how long? Fleet managers have been pushing to have test hops done by line pilots and that HCFs are not necessary per the MPD. The only reason AA does them now is because the APA has pushed for it. How much you want a bet that goes away? All the top performing airlines outsource their heavy overhaul now we seem destined to join them thanks to us "showing" them whose the boss.

I did laugh at it. I am just saying AA knows the first check would not get done in peak time. Also, the airline is reducing ASM which means they will need fewer flight hours out of aircraft. Once the schedule is caught up, turn time will not be as critical. Again, we showed them.

The AA package is different that others. When we did the AS 737s if you remember the paper work was a pain. The work wasn't the problem, working with a new customer was.

These arguments will work well in BK as to why AA should keep work in house I am sure. Keep coming up with them, Bob Owens will need the ammo in court.

Actually as for moral, 7 day coverage that the union allowed on Hangar 1D caused the lowest morale in recent times. Try approximately 40 day Retro Checks.

Work was being outsourced before BK. While it may have increased, under business as usual scenarios, these customers are balking at taking on the work because they cannot get payed. I beieve it is the Landing Gear shop that is having issues with the Heat Treat vendor, because AA cannot pay.

 

[xUT]

At this point it doesn't matter. AA decided to outsource and even if it takes longer and delivers a crappy product, it's done. UA made this decision and never looked back...EOS.

Same with components. UA used to have a 'zero time' policy wherein components were made almost new before release. Then came right sized maintenance where components were repaired, tested and released if passed testing.

Then came outsourced maintenance.
Under the UA AOP, components had to be inspected and issued a FAA 8130 under UA's format & AOP.
When too many crappy OSV components were rejected for missing parts, then failing retest, UA changed the AOP to release components from vendors directly in the supply system using the vendors 8130.
"PROBLEM SOLVED"

Also, get ready to have the FAA put a borescope up your arse.
If your AA approved procedure does not comply 'exactly' with the OEM procedure, you will have to correct it or outsource it (to a vendor that the FAA never scrutinizes their personnel, test equipment or procedure).
UA used to have procedures, instructions, testing, and limits that exceeded OEM specifications but the FAA made UA 'dummy down' to comply with OEM specs or outsource it.
How stupid is that? :wacko:

Good Luck Guys N'Gals!
B) xUT

 

[Overspeed]

Actually as for moral, 7 day coverage that the union allowed on Hangar 1D caused the lowest morale in recent times. Try approximately 40 day Retro Checks.

Work was being outsourced before BK. While it may have increased, under business as usual scenarios, these customers are balking at taking on the work because they cannot get payed. I beieve it is the Landing Gear shop that is having issues with the Heat Treat vendor, because AA cannot pay.

I doubt when DL, UA, and US were filing BK and outsourcing their work that was a "business as usual" scenario. Yes vendors will be concerned but they will take on the work. Didn't AA do business with HAL with the DC10s for many months while they were in BK and did not get paid right away? What is happening now is not new and in fact many of the vendors have gotten better at it than in 2004. I suspect while there may be bumps, the AA BK plane will keep flying and who knows what will be outsourced. Those on the line would be naive to believe that they are immune to being outsourced. While big stations might be more stable, the little ones should be puckering and that means high seniority people bumping not only from the Bases but Line as well.

So what's the number on how many will be RIF'd?

 

[Buck]

I doubt when DL, UA, and US were filing BK and outsourcing their work that was a "business as usual" scenario. Yes vendors will be concerned but they will take on the work. Didn't AA do business with HAL with the DC10s for many months while they were in BK and did not get paid right away? What is happening now is not new and in fact many of the vendors have gotten better at it than in 2004. I suspect while there may be bumps, the AA BK plane will keep flying and who knows what will be outsourced. Those on the line would be naive to believe that they are immune to being outsourced. While big stations might be more stable, the little ones should be puckering and that means high seniority people bumping not only from the Bases but Line as well.

So what's the number on how many will be RIF'd?

Read the link in my signature. It is a good overview of the process and briefly what happens in BK. Business as usual at AA, not other airlines. What happened to them is irrelevant. The only positive form the those who have already been through the process, is it lays out a path as a guide of what should or should not be done. Did the other unions have seats on the Creditors Committee? Where the other airlines attempting to grow or replace their respective fleets? And of course how much on hand cash was available for the other airlines?

As for the line being naive, I beg to differ. I believe that no matter how much the line dislikes overhaul, the company will force the union to RED CIRCLE the line to keep the efficiency in place. The machinist has contractual rights to bump to the hangars, right? But I do not see much disturbance in OH bumping the line stations. There may be RIF's but it most likely will be a controlled reduction. The aircraft yields are in trouble, the aircraft the company is wanting to write the leases off on, must be brought to spec or at least on paper. Maintaining the lease requirements, maintaining the fleets that the business as usual model must be continued because that appears to be a part of the restructuring the company is looking for. I agree that the smaller stations may be hit, but it is only because the route structure will change. The OH bases cities will probably start to compete for their revenue stream. whether it is tax revenue based on employee population or fees from operations. What is it called when there is to much roll from RIF? Churn or Chaos?

 

[Flying low]

I wonder how much "overtime" was used at Timco for this check?

 

[Birdman]

I wonder how much "overtime" was used at Timco for this check?

Obviously not enough to make ETA. We will probably never see the billing unless one of E's insiders can produce.

 

[Buck]

5CK, the first aircraft to TIMCO, inducted on 11/01/2011 and will FCF on 12/15/2011.

Latest rumor is that TIMCO has asked for a 10 day extension.

 

[paul1]

because AA is not going to pay them 🙄

 

[Bob Owens]

Those on the line would be naive to believe that they are immune to being outsourced. While big stations might be more stable, the little ones should be puckering and that means high seniority people bumping not only from the Bases but Line as well.

So what's the number on how many will be RIF'd?

Hmm, you seem to forget that in the TA we rejected the ASM cap was more than doubled, meaning that those in the smaller stations would have reason to be concerned and it would be by our own hand.

So tell us Overspeed, do you think that if we had agreed to the TA that AA would not have filed? That they would have continued to pay leases on things they did not use like all those planes in the desert and abandoned facilities?

 

[ibby]

Question was asked about hourly rates at TIMCO rumor has it it is between 40 to 50 a man hour and the mechanics only get a third of that. But all MRO's have gone fixed price any ways so the rate doesn't really matter. If it cost AA 2 million to do a C check in house and the MRO's bid 1 million then geuss who does the C check