Outsourced Work - TULSA

[Bob Owens]

1) AA has more overhaul AMTs making $30 plus an hour whether you look at it in sheer numbers or Base AMTs per aircraft

But we dont have any making $45 and have more than any other making less than $30.

2) AA still has a DB Plan that has not been frozen, terminated, assumed by the PBGC, or had to have their union step up to fill in

And we pay for that by working at least one week per year for free compared to our peers (one week less vacation), having fewer paid holidays and only getting half pay when we have to work the few paid Holidays they recognize, less sick time and other concessions. Those concessions amount to over $4000/year. The company claims my pension cost them $1181,03, so they actually made out better than their peers. A well run pension often costs a company very little, sometimes nothing as investment returns can increase faster than payouts, what often sinks DB pensions is the liabilities that companies throw into them that are for their top paid employees (executives).

3) AA has more AMTs per aircraft working on the Line than anyone whether you look at in AMTs per departure or aircraft

Got the figures to back that up? Doesnt Virgin have a higher ratio than AA?

4) AA outsources the least amount of aircraft maintenance work than anyone whether you look at in percentage of maintence dollars, man hours of work, total shops, or type of work than any other major airline

And AAs average wage is lower, around $27/hr according to the companies own station staffing reports.

Sometimes the choices both stink but I am not willing to go to BK.

Whether or not AA files is not your choice. We have zero control over that and we are NOT a big enough expense to be a determining factor in that decision. We are only asking for around $190 million a year, we gave them over $340 million a year and their revenue has increased by $6 billion since then, we are only asking for 3% of the increased revenue. Our incraese would only amount to less than around one percent (.79)of AAs Revenue for this year

We could work for free and AA could still file, go in front of a Judge and say we need to pay AA to let us play with their airplanes, and companies always get what they want in BK right? What would the company gain by going BK from us? Take away our Pension? Farm out OH? To who? They have never even asked for that and have hired people so they could bring more work in house, its dollars thats driving the hiring not some mysterious Scope clause that you say we have but have yet to produce. If AA files it will be in order to go after the pilots and I think AA would lose that battle. This aint 2003 or 2005. AA cant even replace the pilots that are retiring. If AA goes the BK route and we all do end up in front of a Judge we should folow the example set for us back in 1966 and tell the Judge the same thing Mike Quill did, we should not accept any more concessions.

You constantly compare us to guys who went BK, yet we are pretty close to them and not carriers that did not go BK. All those guys are also in negotiations, I beleieve most are in Mediation, yet you come here and say that we should negotiate backwards in time, based on those agreements that were set in place in BK as much as eight years ago and are in mediation and completely ignore agreements that have been settled more recently such as UPS and WN.

We have a responsibility to the rest of the workers in this industry to not sell out just because some are afraid of their own shadows.

 

[Overspeed]

?

But we dont have any making $45 and have more than any other making less than $30.



And we pay for that by working at least one week per year for free compared to our peers (one week less vacation), having fewer paid holidays and only getting half pay when we have to work the few paid Holidays they recognize, less sick time and other concessions. Those concessions amount to over $4000/year. The company claims my pension cost them $1181,03, so they actually made out better than their peers. A well run pension often costs a company very little, sometimes nothing as investment returns can increase faster than payouts, what often sinks DB pensions is the liabilities that companies throw into them that are for their top paid employees (executives).



Got the figures to back that up? Doesnt Virgin have a higher ratio than AA?



And AAs average wage is lower, around $27/hr according to the companies own station staffing reports.



Whether or not AA files is not your choice. We have zero control over that and we are NOT a big enough expense to be a determining factor in that decision. We are only asking for around $190 million a year, we gave them over $340 million a year and their revenue has increased by $6 billion since then, we are only asking for 3% of the increased revenue. Our incraese would only amount to less than around one percent (.79)of AAs Revenue for this year

We could work for free and AA could still file, go in front of a Judge and say we need to pay AA to let us play with their airplanes, and companies always get what they want in BK right? What would the company gain by going BK from us? Take away our Pension? Farm out OH? To who? They have never even asked for that and have hired people so they could bring more work in house, its dollars thats driving the hiring not some mysterious Scope clause that you say we have but have yet to produce. If AA files it will be in order to go after the pilots and I think AA would lose that battle. This aint 2003 or 2005. AA cant even replace the pilots that are retiring. If AA goes the BK route and we all do end up in front of a Judge we should folow the example set for us back in 1966 and tell the Judge the same thing Mike Quill did, we should not accept any more concessions.

You constantly compare us to guys who went BK, yet we are pretty close to them and not carriers that did not go BK. All those guys are also in negotiations, I beleieve most are in Mediation, yet you come here and say that we should negotiate backwards in time, based on those agreements that were set in place in BK as much as eight years ago and are in mediation and completely ignore agreements that have been settled more recently such as UPS and WN.

We have a responsibility to the rest of the workers in this industry to not sell out just because some are afraid of their own shadows.

1) As I told the other guy, you can have 400 guys making $45/hour for $37.5M or 575 guys doing the more work at $30/hour costing $37.5M. Bob I suggest you go tell the 30% that have to get laid off and their work outsourced for your bigger pay check.

2) So your proposal is to give up the pension in exchange for VC, 1/2 SK pay, etc...? A well run and funded pension costs money even if it is one dollar per member whch it obviously doesn't. 401(k)s are cheaper because you have to put something in to get the match. Remember the Carty SERP fiasco, the executive pension is separate.

3) We have on the line about 3,500 and 600 aircraft which is 5.8 per aircraft, Virgin reports 4.7 per aircraft in the DOT information. We overall are at 20.5 maintenance per aircraft including overhaul. http://web.mit.edu/airlinedata/www/2010%2012%20Month%20Documents/Employees%20and%20Productivity/MX/Average%20In%20House%20Maintenance%20Employees%20per%20Aircraft.htm

4) See item 1

5) Then if we have no control and AA has all the power, what are you doing going to DFW for negotiations? Save your Local's money. You apparently bring nothing to the table by your own admission. AA can do whatever they want. You keep beating your chest and playing your games for what? If you need attention I could submit your hilarious Vote No video to Tosh.0 and you can get all the attention you want. You talk all this grandiose BS and have nothing to show for other than we still don't have a raise? The only tool in your arsenal is release which the NMB isn't even coming to your soap box show. You have been outclassed and outplayed by Weel and Brundage. Of course we may get the chance to test your strategy if you do get release...in 2013. As far as comparisons to BK carriers, guess what, they sell seats on the same routes as AA. When a passenger goes to buy a ticket the agent does not ask, "Would like to fly BK or non-BK airlines?" You compete in the same markets like it or not. That is the issue. And all those BK airlines, they all dumped more than labor contracts it was undesirable leases and assets, unsecured debt, builkdings, expensive service contracts.

 

[strikeforce]

We have a responsibility to the rest of the workers in this industry to not sell out just because some are afraid of their own shadows.

our workers can care less about their "union brother".

This whole "union" thing is BS. nobody cares within the TWU.....leadership and workers. Let's stop kidding ourselves. The TWU leadership holds secret informal negotiating sessions for fleet and presto the leadership jumps at the company last offer. In November, you guys will fall for the same cherades....the company slides a proposal under the door and you guys will be falling all over each other to grab it. The company's proposal will look identical to fleets and the local presidents will use the roll call vote to accept it. Then the bitching and moaning starts, but the guys will accept it because right now the guys will take anything you guys will bring back. Did I miss anything Bob??? This is classic TWU negotiations.....wear down the membership, let them #### and moan, and then after 9 years of nothing, they will take crumbs. After ratification, the local presidents will stroll the ready rooms and blame the membership for accepting the concessions.

At the INTL, the guys are patting themselves on the backs....high fiving like they just won the super bowl....and going out for filet mignon on our dime....and I'm absolutely sure they don't have any remorse for their failure at the table. I'm sure they will say it's OUR fault for not standing up for the profession and livelihoods.....and for the most part they're right. But, the TWU INTL will always be regarded as cowards and company baffoons because they continue to show their true colors by helping the company, but what's the local president's excuse for bringing back a POS T/A????? Aren't the other local presidents guys like you and me. Guys that go to work everyday and try to make a decent living......why on earth would they feel compelled to give away the farm??? Unless they're on the take, right!

 

[Bob Owens]

our workers can care less about their "union brother".

This whole "union" thing is BS. Did I miss anything Bob???

Yes, where do you stand? Do you feel that we have a responsibility to the profession, as Union mechanics fight for better wages and working conditions?

 

[strikeforce]

Yes, where do you stand? Do you feel that we have a responsibility to the profession, as Union mechanics fight for better wages and working conditions?
[/quote

been in unions since 16 yrs old. belonged to UFCW, IAM and TWU. my dad was in the UAW and my mother was in the confectionery union working for Hostess Cake....the makers of twinkies and cupcakes.

the UAW where my dad worked was ruthless, but fair to it's members. I remember my dad would always have some news letter or info from the union. they would do a hand vote for the contract at a nearby hotel, and his friends and co-workers would come by and check on my dad whenever he got sick or was in the hospital. That was true unionism....the guys looked out for each others well being, both health and welfare. my dad was a material handler...fancy name for stock clerk. The union officials and stewards were ELECTED by the membership. the officials had super seniority and the workers respected the officials because they personally witnessed their representatives go to bat for the workers.....something I don't see today. In return, the workers would listen and stick together. Those 300 or so workers and union officials were a team and they fought tooth and nail to make $10 an hour. I still remember the day my dad was reading a T/A where he would make $8.50 an hour and looking at my dad's expression I thought we won the lottery. The next day his employer let the workers leave early so they could go to the local Holiday Inn and vote. Nobody was ashamed at voting by hand because they ALL respected how others voted. That was true unionism, Bob.

We absolutley have a responsibility to the profession to keep wages high and our out of pocket expenses low. The membership, as a whole, has a responsibilty to the profession to do the same. But, WE are not on the same page and we have different thought processes. There are people that think the POS T/A was good and some that hated it. We are a divided group. Some members are more company than union.....some have allegiance to the company because of the CS policy. even our union officials are divided in what's best for the profession. some union officials run for their own benefit. This is what I've witnessed over 21 years....and it's the very reason why WE are screwed as a profession and labor organization. You can place blame on everyone of US because WE don't think, eat, drink, fight, and vote as ONE! When I say WE.....I mean you and me, after all WE are the aircraft mechanics. We are the union, and if WE don't stick together and fight for our profession......who do you expect will???? It all begins with YOU, Bob, and the other local presidents. You are the leader and if you guys don't go to bat for our common cause, our profession.....WHO WILL???? Tell the other local presidents to stop bringing back POS T/A's and you might earn the respect from the membership. That might be a good start, Bob!

 

[OldGuy@AA]

Yes, where do you stand? Do you feel that we have a responsibility to the profession, as Union mechanics fight for better wages and working conditions?

Bob. I for one appreciate what you are doing and agree that we only lose if we accept a deal without retro. The problem I see is the "me" people posting here and I hope they are the minimum. Still angry they didn't get $2.55 line pay while O/H got nothing but a promise of a variable compensation package to be discussed later. I am an O/H guy but would not vote yes on a contract that did that to line. I can also understand how frustrated the line guys are with O/H. We have a fleet service guy as president here in Tulsa. (I did not vote for him) I only wish these people would undestand the damage they do by posting things here that the company can use against us. There is even a company man that posts here and the only thing he does is sing the company song and accuse us of being ungrateful and greedy when we ask for basic benefits. But the point is that he is engaged by some of the posters on this board and continues to slam us with his company slanted numbers and bogus statements. He should be completely ignored but there are some who think they are smarter than the rest and can change his attitude. You cannot negotiate with terrorists and you can't convince a company man that union workers deserve respect and pay and benefits. You have more people in your corner than you know. Many that I talk to on a daily basis agree with you. If it wasn't for you we would have no information at all. Our fleet service clerk president here in Tulsa tells us nothing at all. Thank you Bob for thinking of the membership. I wish all local presidents were like you.

 

[Kev3188]

the UAW where my dad worked was ruthless, but fair to it's members. I remember my dad would always have some news letter or info from the union. they would do a hand vote for the contract at a nearby hotel, and his friends and co-workers would come by and check on my dad whenever he got sick or was in the hospital. That was true unionism....the guys looked out for each others well being, both health and welfare. my dad was a material handler...fancy name for stock clerk. The union officials and stewards were ELECTED by the membership. the officials had super seniority and the workers respected the officials because they personally witnessed their representatives go to bat for the workers.....something I don't see today. In return, the workers would listen and stick together. Those 300 or so workers and union officials were a team and they fought tooth and nail to make $10 an hour. I still remember the day my dad was reading a T/A where he would make $8.50 an hour and looking at my dad's expression I thought we won the lottery. The next day his employer let the workers leave early so they could go to the local Holiday Inn and vote. Nobody was ashamed at voting by hand because they ALL respected how others voted. That was true unionism, Bob.

YES

This is how it should (and can) be. Until that time comes, IGM disease will continue to rule the day.

 

[Overspeed]

Once again you dont comprehend, Judge Mitchell sided with the company and abrogated our CBA and distressed terminated our pension.

The Judge's responsibility is to the creditors and to ensure the POR is successful, something you dont know about, now do you?

I sat in the courtroom, sat at US headquarters trying to work a deal out, and they wanted nothing to do with it.

The last in line in fairness in bankruptcy is the employees.

But your an armchair QB, I lived it twice, have you?

The responsibility is to the secured creditors first specifically. I do comprehend and why I posted the 9 tests. That was what judge Mitchell used when determining that even if you did bargain in good faith, there judge still has to consider all variables.

Listen, I understand you have a new IAM Pension, that's great. The point I am trying to make is that BK court is not where you want to be if possible. I am sure your members appreciate the fact you fought to get the best deal possible.

Have I gone through a BK personally? Yes and no. My wife lost here job during BK1 at CAL and ended up with a vastly reduced pension since Lorenzo was determined to kill the union and the pension fund. The BK laws changed as a result of all the companies - airline and non-airline - rushing to dump their pension obligation. I have spoken to many ex-TWA people and their runs through BK twice was not pretty. Armchair QB, hardly. I am active in this union explaining how Mr Owens is very misguided.

 

[wrencher]

The responsibility is to the secured creditors first specifically. I do comprehend and why I posted the 9 tests. That was what judge Mitchell used when determining that even if you did bargain in good faith, there judge still has to consider all variables.

Listen, I understand you have a new IAM Pension, that's great. The point I am trying to make is that BK court is not where you want to be if possible. I am sure your members appreciate the fact you fought to get the best deal possible.

Have I gone through a BK personally? Yes and no. My wife lost here job during BK1 at CAL and ended up with a vastly reduced pension since Lorenzo was determined to kill the union and the pension fund. The BK laws changed as a result of all the companies - airline and non-airline - rushing to dump their pension obligation. I have spoken to many ex-TWA people and their runs through BK twice was not pretty. Armchair QB, hardly. I am active in this union explaining how Mr Owens is very misguided.

yes I AM an ex twaer who got porked on the pension side. i was only 40 at the time with 16 years and now I get 95.00 at age 65 I just barely was over the 5000 limit value for getting a one time lump some 15 years ago which would have been a hell of alot more value than what I will recieve at 65. And yes the glorious IAM drug their feet for some 5 years before we were allowed in the IAM PENSION PLAN , the reason was uncle Carl ichan man did they milk that one but in all honesty the real reason was the fact the average age at that time was 57 and for them to allow us in the plat at that time you would have had to be funding it for 10 years before the union would pay out your pension benefits on intrest only money in other words it would have cost them big time. That's the real reason folks plain and simple. Follow the money if you want the anwers.

 

[700UW]

The bankruptcy laws were changed and enacted section 1113 after Lorenzo and CO, it had nothing to do with the pensions. It was about Contract Abrogations, before there was not the the steps to follow and abrogation was just a formality.

Section 1114 covers retirees.

Dont let the facts get in your way.

 

[Overspeed]

The bankruptcy laws were changed and enacted section 1113 after Lorenzo and CO, it had nothing to do with the pensions. It was about Contract Abrogations, before there was not the the steps to follow and abrogation was just a formality.

Section 1114 covers retirees.

Dont let the facts get in your way.

And the BK law changed Oct 2005 due to the fact that so many airlines had filed BK. The PBGC was in risk of defaulting. CBAs are part of sec 1113 are they not? Isn't the pension plan part of the CBA as far as future plans? BK is now more onerous than before. UAL kept filing for extension after extension. If AA files what you went through may be minor.

We can argue semantics all day. The facts are that BK is not a good thing. Agreed?

 

[strikeforce]

Bob. I for one appreciate what you are doing and agree that we only lose if we accept a deal without retro. The problem I see is the "me" people posting here and I hope they are the minimum. Still angry they didn't get $2.55 line pay while O/H got nothing but a promise of a variable compensation package to be discussed later. I am an O/H guy but would not vote yes on a contract that did that to line. I can also understand how frustrated the line guys are with O/H. We have a fleet service guy as president here in Tulsa. (I did not vote for him) I only wish these people would undestand the damage they do by posting things here that the company can use against us. There is even a company man that posts here and the only thing he does is sing the company song and accuse us of being ungrateful and greedy when we ask for basic benefits. But the point is that he is engaged by some of the posters on this board and continues to slam us with his company slanted numbers and bogus statements. He should be completely ignored but there are some who think they are smarter than the rest and can change his attitude. You cannot negotiate with terrorists and you can't convince a company man that union workers deserve respect and pay and benefits. You have more people in your corner than you know. Many that I talk to on a daily basis agree with you. If it wasn't for you we would have no information at all. Our fleet service clerk president here in Tulsa tells us nothing at all. Thank you Bob for thinking of the membership. I wish all local presidents were like you.

Don't get me wrong Old Guy, I'm not bashing Bob Owens for the other president's failures. Bob does go above and beyond all others to expose the cherades and non-sense at negotiations....and I commend him for that. I wish my local president was like Bob too, but he isn't, and he's on his way out the door. You're right you can't negotiate with terrorists and company posters. I know who the company guys are because they talk trash and they talk numbers....acronyms and the like. They're not fooling anybody, and that's ok...let them have their fun. And, I know the TWU INTL has there own trash talkers on this forum, and that's ok too. I think most people have wised up to all this non-sense and cherades from both company and INTL. Let the rejected T/A serve as notice to those people directly behind the cherades that WE are on to you and WE will expose you.....it's just a matter of time. Thanks to Bob!


The INTL and AA will not live in peace until our pay and benefits are fully restored......that I can promise you, OLD GUY!