Flight Attendant Seniority Merger Question

[Air conditioned]

A fellow coworker and I were having a discussion about the merger.
Here is the question: if seniority lists are merged and a US flight attendant is out on invol furlough but is ahead of an Amer West flight attndt who is still working, what happens? Will they recall the US f/a back since they are "ahead" of the Amer West flight attendant? Any idea how this will be handled?

 

[Twicebaked]

From what I have been told.....

Once the lists are intergrated (in about 2 years) any US flight attendant (or AWA if the case happens to be) that is on an INOL Furlough, CANNOT come back until there is a need. ie. retirements, attrition etc. Basically needing to hire.
They will bring with them the longevity that they had when they were furloughed.

As far as accrual?????

As we all know, a US INVOL is NOT accruing any longevity, so where they will be slotted at this point is anybody's guess.

PITBULL????

 

[Twicebaked]

I posted this on another thread, but....


Expanding further....

If you were hired in Jan of 2000 and were furloughed December 2001, you might not be ahead of an America West f/a that was hired in January 2002. You only had two years when you were furloughed, the AWA flight attendant now has 3 1/2 years seniority. You only have 2 years seniority. Should date of hire rule in this instance? Honestly, probably not. I don't know.

This is one of the reasons I am sure the AFA is trying to get all the invols back on the property before the integration happens.

THIS IS ONLY MY GUESS.....I DON'T KNOW THIS AS FACT.
I SUGGEST YOU CALL YOUR LOCAL LEC OR MEC FOR AN ANSWER..IF THERE IS ONE YET.

 

[PITbull]

From what I have been told.....

Once the lists are intergrated (in about 2 years) any US flight attendant (or AWA if the case happens to be) that is on an INOL Furlough,  CANNOT come back until there is a need. ie. retirements, attrition etc. Basically needing to hire.
They will bring with them the longevity that they had when they were furloughed.

As far as accrual?????

As we all know, a US INVOL is NOT accruing any longevity, so where they will be slotted at this point is anybody's guess.

PITBULL????

[post="284651"][/post]​

Twice,

You are correct.

However, anything can be negotiated when your at the table integrating the provisions as well as the "list".

Sometimes, if you give or add 3 years longevity to all the INVOLS no matter when they were furloughed, then allow a slot in 2 for 1 concept might work.

I don't know how the disucssions will go, and no one to my knowledge is discussing any type of neogtiations with this issue at present.

Just my own thinking if I were at the table for possibilities.

I think it is just as important to argue longevity for our Invols as it is for the AWA argument to not have 40% of AWA f/as to be at the bottom just from the DOH concept.

Invols have no longevity. At present, the AWA f/as are collecting seniority and longevity. If INVOLS want longevity, sometimes if negotiated with the DOH issue with AWA, both parties may find some acceptance allowing one for a little of the other.

No one knows at this point. The fences will go up, and no one knows what 18 months from now or 2 years what the attrition and retirment will look like for both airlines.


With regard to the question of acrruing seniority while out on furlough, the answer is yes. For bidding purposes only, not longevity. So the most junior f/a on INVOL at USA is senior to probably 40% of the AWA f/as that were hired 2002 and beyond. And the INVOLS seniroity will continue to accrue for bidding purposes only.

 

[DCAflyer]

I read the Bylaws and there is no provision for adjusting seniority accrual for integration purposes, nor is there a provision for pausing seniority accrual during furlough.

It seems to me that the controlling document over seniority intergration is the Bylaws. The document is clear... you take the list from Carrier A and the list from Carrier B and blend them.

Likewise, I don't see where the negotiators have the authority to ignore the AFA Bylaws or adjust seniority (other than adjustments for credit during intial training, as outlined in the Bylaws) during this transaction.

Blend the lists pursuant to the dictate of the Bylaws and let the chips fall where they may!

 

[DCAflyer]

I read the Bylaws and there is no provision for adjusting seniority accrual for integration purposes, nor is there a provision for pausing seniority accrual during furlough.

It seems to me that the controlling document over seniority intergration is the Bylaws. The document is clear... you take the list from Carrier A and the list from Carrier B and blend them.

Likewise, I don't see where the negotiators have the authority to ignore the AFA Bylaws or adjust seniority (other than adjustments for credit during intial training, as outlined in the Bylaws) during this transaction.

Blend the lists pursuant to the dictate of the Bylaws and let the chips fall where they may!

 

[Twicebaked]

It is however in the contract that you don't accure longevity for pay/vac purposes.

19-2 H. line 13 " A flight attendant who is furloughed shall, upon retrun to duty, be credited with all longevity for pay and vacation step increases that he/she had prior to such furlough. Further, such flight attendant shall continue to accrue pension service credits for the first three years....."

What it doesn't mention is longevity for bidding purposes... ie. trips, vacation days, etc.

What neither the contract nor the bylaws state is WHEN a flight attendant needs to be recalled in the event of an integration.

It may be possible that one would be slotted in DOH when they are recalled, it can be negotiated that one WILL NOT be recalled until there is a need not to cause furloughs to the merging company.

Although we may agree or disagree with this issue, it is not for us to say. Although DOH is in the by-laws, it doesn't address every single situation that may arise. The unions can negotiate different aggreements. You know that.

Just hang tight and see what they come up with and then complain if there is a need.

 

[PITbull]

I read the Bylaws and there is no provision for adjusting seniority accrual for integration purposes, nor is there a provision for pausing seniority accrual during furlough.

It seems to me that the controlling document over seniority intergration is the Bylaws.  The document is clear... you take the list from Carrier A and the list from Carrier B and blend them.

Likewise, I don't see where the negotiators have the authority to ignore  the AFA Bylaws or adjust seniority (other than adjustments for credit during intial training, as outlined in the Bylaws) during this transaction. 

Blend the lists pursuant to the dictate of the Bylaws and let the chips fall where they may!

[post="284735"][/post]​

Provisions of an agreement will be negotiated and the two parties will work out the rest. Than it goes out for a VOTE.

I bet the furloughees would want longevity for all the years they have been out. WE have some 6-month f/a that didn't even make probation that we negotiated to be furloughed instead of terminated. Many like them would want to have longevity and vacation. That's negotiated by AWA management and trust, there's a price if we pursue that direction. Presently the INVOLS DON"T have it.

Its like this...we could just leave it as it is...DOH, AWA goes primarily to the bottom and the INVOLS as they get recalled because of growth, will NOT come back with longevity pay or vacation for their lost time. They maybe senior to AWA f/as, but the AWA will be paid higher wages with higher vacation.

Something everyone should think about.

 

[DCAflyer]

Provisions of an agreement will be negotiated and the two parties will work out the rest. Than it goes out for a VOTE.

I bet the furloughees would want longevity for all the years they have been out. WE have some 6-month f/a that didn't even make probation that we negotiated to be furloughed instead of terminated. Many like them would want to have longevity and vacation. That's negotiated by AWA management and trust, there's a price if we pursue that direction. Presently the INVOLS DON"T have it.

Its like this...we could just leave it as it is...DOH, AWA goes primarily to the bottom and the INVOLS as they get recalled because of growth, will NOT come back with longevity pay or vacation for their lost time. They maybe senior to AWA f/as, but the AWA will be paid higher wages with higher vacation.

Something everyone should think about.

[post="284777"][/post]​

Pitbull,

That is the way I see it. There are two documents governing two seperate purposes.

The bylaws govern seniority integration, and the company is bound to honor that. The document says that two AFA-represented carriers are required to merge seniority by date of hire, adjusting the date therefor only for the express purposes of crediting represented flight attendants for initial inflight training if one carrier previously used the training start dates for seniority purposes and the other did not.

The other document, the Flight Attendant Agreement, governs the terms of employment between the respective carriers and the flight attendants. This includes rates of pay at each pay step, benefits, etc.

I cannot speak for them, but I believe most invols would not object to pay grade pauses, as is the case with the UAIR F/A agreement. I don't think they like it, but this transaction may afford those invols who currently want to come back may have an opportunity to do so. It is true that F/A B may be senior to F/A A, yet earn less money.

The AWA F/A agreement is due for renegotiation now, and I believe it makes the most sense now to negotiate a new global agreement covering both the UAIR and the AWA F/As. Hopefully, Teddy will be around for those negotiations.

 

[Air conditioned]

I cannot speak for them, but I believe most invols would not object to pay grade pauses, as is the case with the UAIR F/A agreement. I don't think they like it, but this transaction may afford those invols who currently want to come back may have an opportunity to do so. It is true that F/A B may be senior to F/A A, yet earn less money.

[post="284786"][/post]​

I think you are correct about the INVOLS not objecting to pay grade pauses if it means they could get their jobs back. MAA is proof that there are people that missed flying so much they still wanted to return, even at less wages.
Hopefully it will all work out-DOH would be great-longevity for all the time out on furlough would be even better. Let's keep our fingers crossed that negotiations go fairly when that time comes... :unsure:

Until then, what sort of fences should UAIR f/as expect?

 

[cltflyguy]

I posted this on another thread, but....
Expanding further....


This is one of the reasons I am sure the AFA is trying to get all the invols back on the property before the integration happens.

[post="284653"][/post]​

Yeah well.....If NO aircraft was being parked and with all the f/as leaving this year .......there would have been major call backs BUT thats not the case :down:
So its being said that it may take up to 3 years to intergrate?? I honestly
and truly wonder if it will get to a point that there will be call backs say
in one/two years before the intergration! The only way i see that happening
is if 1) a few more retirement packages are offered and 2) NO more aircraft are parked. I maybe wrong but I think more are gonna hang around now and wait and see what happens before putting in for retirement.