I see that the TA has been loaded onto the 556 web site. They have a log in in order to read it, can anyone get to it for the details and highlights? Now that there are different opinions about the TA just kind of curious of what was really nego or if the membership was sold out by the twu as some have indicated. If someone could post the details it would be greatly appreciated...
Flight attendants reach tentative agreement with Southwest Airlines
- Thread starter WNMECH
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- Thread Starter
- #17
Some details.
http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/2015/07/flight-attendant-union-reveals-details-of-proposed-southwest-airlines-contract.html/
Highlights of the six-year agreement include:
•Three Annual 3% Pay Rate Scale Increases (2015, 2017, 2019)
•Two 3% Annual Bonuses (2016, 2018)
•1% Annual Guaranteed Ground Time Compensation Bonus
•Bonus Potential of up to 1% Annually Based on SWA business results
•Enhanced Vacation Pay
•More Flexibility for Flight Attendants to Address Their Quality of Life
This story doesn't show any raises for the last two years, so that would mean no retro.
They may have gotten a signing bonus in place of retro , like they offered other workgroups.
Need to wait and see official highlights.
http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/2015/07/flight-attendant-union-reveals-details-of-proposed-southwest-airlines-contract.html/
Highlights of the six-year agreement include:
•Three Annual 3% Pay Rate Scale Increases (2015, 2017, 2019)
•Two 3% Annual Bonuses (2016, 2018)
•1% Annual Guaranteed Ground Time Compensation Bonus
•Bonus Potential of up to 1% Annually Based on SWA business results
•Enhanced Vacation Pay
•More Flexibility for Flight Attendants to Address Their Quality of Life
This story doesn't show any raises for the last two years, so that would mean no retro.
They may have gotten a signing bonus in place of retro , like they offered other workgroups.
Need to wait and see official highlights.
The raises are on the same horrible schedule that the agents recently ratified. Every other year is an actual raise, while the in between years are just 'bonuses'. That's something else that if brought back to MX I would be an automatic NO
I'm wondering what the chances are for any contract to pass that includes a negotiated 2 year minimum moratorium on pay and benefits at the end?
- Thread Starter
- #20
More details and reaction.
NO RETRO.
http://www.bizjournals.com/chicago/news/2015/07/08/southwest-airlines-flight-attendants-see-proposed.html?ana=yahoo
"I have seen enough and compared to our previous contract language to know for certain this is a concessionary contract. Also, even though there is no defined contract language for retroactive pay, it has always been negotiated for our flight attendants going back to the date the contract expired (in 2013 in this instance). There is no retro pay, just a signing bonus (in the proposed contract). The bonus is taxed at 40 percent."
NO RETRO.
http://www.bizjournals.com/chicago/news/2015/07/08/southwest-airlines-flight-attendants-see-proposed.html?ana=yahoo
"I have seen enough and compared to our previous contract language to know for certain this is a concessionary contract. Also, even though there is no defined contract language for retroactive pay, it has always been negotiated for our flight attendants going back to the date the contract expired (in 2013 in this instance). There is no retro pay, just a signing bonus (in the proposed contract). The bonus is taxed at 40 percent."
Just from what I have seen so far I would be a NO vote. 3% is not even COLA, every other year for potential bonus (that are taxed at 40%) and at the companies books and pens are not a good thing, the added bonuses of 1% being offered each year are also still how the company spends their money. More active hours added by almost 2 hrs per day, mandatory show time for 800 flights increased to 45 minutes from 30 minutes, and yes they are being offered a signing bonus instead of retro which will be taxed at 40% AND never gets added to the compound % of being tied to each and every year of raises now and in the future. Hoping all the F/A's vote this crap down. I am sure there are many more work rules being demolished and as the F/A's have already put out here that this is really a concessionary contract period...
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
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again, you conveniently forget profit sharing which DL and WN employees both have and DL employees received at a higher rate than WN employees.
Further, this is AVERAGE compensation and it is a given that DL FAs will not be growing their average compensation as much because DL has been aggressively hiring FAs in order to keep labor costs down.
Rapid growth is precisey the strategy that low cost carriers have used for years, including WN, and the reason why WN is returning to aggressive growth is because growth comes with new hire employees which cost less and drive down the averages. AS is doing the exact same thing.
AA/US and UA have not been growing near as much and will be hard-pressed to do so because the revenue justification for growth is not as strong as it is at other carriers.
Further, AA and US reported as separate carriers in 2014 and so an accurate representation of AA includes US FAs.
Finally and specific to this topic, it was a given with consolidation that fewer airlines would make it harder for labor to extract wages, esp. at carriers that already are paid above average.
DL pilots said some of the same things that WN labor groups are saying - their TA is concessionary, including because of work rule changes, and that the company should be able to afford much larger raises because of record profitability.
Voting on the TAs that are in play right now will give a very strong indication of where labor is going in the next few years but the chances are very high that labor throughout the airline industry will be getting low single digit raises on average in return for increased productivity.
Further, this is AVERAGE compensation and it is a given that DL FAs will not be growing their average compensation as much because DL has been aggressively hiring FAs in order to keep labor costs down.
Rapid growth is precisey the strategy that low cost carriers have used for years, including WN, and the reason why WN is returning to aggressive growth is because growth comes with new hire employees which cost less and drive down the averages. AS is doing the exact same thing.
AA/US and UA have not been growing near as much and will be hard-pressed to do so because the revenue justification for growth is not as strong as it is at other carriers.
Further, AA and US reported as separate carriers in 2014 and so an accurate representation of AA includes US FAs.
Finally and specific to this topic, it was a given with consolidation that fewer airlines would make it harder for labor to extract wages, esp. at carriers that already are paid above average.
DL pilots said some of the same things that WN labor groups are saying - their TA is concessionary, including because of work rule changes, and that the company should be able to afford much larger raises because of record profitability.
Voting on the TAs that are in play right now will give a very strong indication of where labor is going in the next few years but the chances are very high that labor throughout the airline industry will be getting low single digit raises on average in return for increased productivity.
WorldTraveler said:
But the data in the graph/ linked article talks about wages (you know, payment on a regular basis), not total compensation.
pssst: what happens to total compensation when there is no profit sharing?
tough one!
With respect to rapid growth: isn't that the sign of a healthy carrier?
Furthermore, in your attempt to blindly vindicate DL at all costs: on one hand you say that DL has been aggressively hiring FAs (therefore lower labor costs). The very next line you point out that WN strategy (and other LCC strategy) is rapid growth and therefore low costs. Doesn't it then mean that it must really suck to be a FA at DL, given that even though it has been until recently stagnant in terms of FA hiring, the average FA wage so so bad (compared to WN). Imagine how much worse the numbers would be if WN was a stagnant carrier ...............
Please, spin spin spin away!
And I don't believe I got an answer as to how much worse (or better) the 2013 numbers are compared to 2014.
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
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why is it expected that WN can be profitable for decades and pay profit sharing but legacy carriers can't do the same?
the rest of you wrote doesn't even logically fit the facts.
WN itself did not do much hiring during the FL merger process and has just started internally growing again.
Slow internal growth is a natural part of the merger process; airlines that have completed the merger process reach the point that they can grow and for that reason the growth rates between the big 4 is different.
Airline Data Project data can be found here. http://web.mit.edu/airlinedata/www/default.html
the rest of you wrote doesn't even logically fit the facts.
WN itself did not do much hiring during the FL merger process and has just started internally growing again.
Slow internal growth is a natural part of the merger process; airlines that have completed the merger process reach the point that they can grow and for that reason the growth rates between the big 4 is different.
Airline Data Project data can be found here. http://web.mit.edu/airlinedata/www/default.html
Thank you for the link.
However, if you're going to throw a hissy fit about using 2013 vs 2014 data to get the average wage numbers, I thought you would have the updated numbers handy yourself and be ready to argue your case. I guess I expected too much.
We'll see if the legacies are capable of remaining profitable for decades in a way that WN is able to. Their business models and the product offered are still different.
However, if you're going to throw a hissy fit about using 2013 vs 2014 data to get the average wage numbers, I thought you would have the updated numbers handy yourself and be ready to argue your case. I guess I expected too much.
We'll see if the legacies are capable of remaining profitable for decades in a way that WN is able to. Their business models and the product offered are still different.
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
- Dec 5, 2003
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since this is the WN forum, it isn't appropriate to detail all of the changes for all carriers.
Specific to WN/FL, the only relevant note is that WN has not provided FL's specific cost data to the DOT for several years so it is impossible to know what has happened with compensation among ex-FL employees that are now part of WN. This is different from what each of the surviving legacies did since they reported employee and cost data to the DOT for their merger partners until their separate operating certificate was no longer used. Since 2014 marked the end of FL's operating certificate, there will be no more info on FL.
But it is also very possible that the increase in WN employee average compensation came in significant part because of bringing FL employees up to WN pay scales.
Wall Street believes that the legacy carriers can be profitable on a sustained basis and the market valuations reflect that; while it was about 10 years ago that the market value of the enire US airline industry was less than WN, now the valuations are generally reflective of size with UA being the primary exception. AA, AS, B6, DL, and WN are all valued along roughly similar lines, something that hasn't existed in the US airline industry for years.
Specific to WN/FL, the only relevant note is that WN has not provided FL's specific cost data to the DOT for several years so it is impossible to know what has happened with compensation among ex-FL employees that are now part of WN. This is different from what each of the surviving legacies did since they reported employee and cost data to the DOT for their merger partners until their separate operating certificate was no longer used. Since 2014 marked the end of FL's operating certificate, there will be no more info on FL.
But it is also very possible that the increase in WN employee average compensation came in significant part because of bringing FL employees up to WN pay scales.
Wall Street believes that the legacy carriers can be profitable on a sustained basis and the market valuations reflect that; while it was about 10 years ago that the market value of the enire US airline industry was less than WN, now the valuations are generally reflective of size with UA being the primary exception. AA, AS, B6, DL, and WN are all valued along roughly similar lines, something that hasn't existed in the US airline industry for years.
Pretty sure the F/A's TA will go down in flames after these numbers were just posted and a majority was waiting for the results prior to voting deadline of Fri the 24th. We may have yet another group to enter into the mediation circle. We will see come tomorrow afternoon...
Southwest Airlines posts record profit in second quarter
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