"fooled Again By Ward"

[jsn25911]

Whatever you think of the TWA people - they have been correct in everything that they have told you.
1. They warned you that negotiations needed to be started right away - however, apfa waited until the last minute.
2. They begged to be part of the negotiations - because of their experience.
3. They warned you about the "wolf cry" of the bankruptcy
4. Even before the fiasco about the voting - a TWA posted about the bonuses going to AA management.

Even after all of this - TWA is warning you that John Ward is using the senority issue as a scare tactic - He can not stand on his own merit - so he uses the same tactic as AA. Threaten, scare, etc! And it is working. However, I thought the membership would be smarter after being fooled once, twice, three times - How many times does it take for you to start thinking for yourself? Think about the work rules, your pay, your long duty days, etc. The senority issue is out of your hands and John Ward hands- so he is offering you false hope - because he has nothing else to offer (his past demonstatrates that).

 

[StraaightTaalk]

Since you are intent on beating a dead horse, if the TWA flight attendants are/were such experts on running an airline and a union, why then is TWA no more; why then did they willingly sign away their seniority rights as a condition of the acquisition; why then did the IAM not try to get an injunction against the seniority integration; and perhaps, one of the biggest questions in my mind, why then did the majority of flight attendants vote to leave IFFA and join the IAM? Obviously, those TWA individuals who are now running for APFA office, and claim to have ALL the answers on how to run a union, DO NOT have all the answers.

Just witness your failed strike of 1986.

 

[StraaightTaalk]

Whatever you think of the TWA people - they have been correct in everything that they have told you.
1. They warned you that negotiations needed to be started right away - however, apfa waited until the last minute.
2. They begged to be part of the negotiations - because of their experience.
3. They warned you about the "wolf cry" of the bankruptcy
4. Even before the fiasco about the voting - a TWA posted about the bonuses going to AA management.

Even after all of this - TWA is warning you that John Ward is using the senority issue as a scare tactic - He can not stand on his own merit - so he uses the same tactic as AA. Threaten, scare, etc! And it is working. However, I thought the membership would be smarter after being fooled once, twice, three times - How many times does it take for you to start thinking for yourself? Think about the work rules, your pay, your long duty days, etc. The senority issue is out of your hands and John Ward hands- so he is offering you false hope - because he has nothing else to offer (his past demonstatrates that).

Be specific...

WHO specifically warned APFA, and WHEN was APFA specifically warned? I assume that you are implying that Sherry Cooper warned APFA all along. Be prepared to provide documentation of Cooper's warnings re a possible bankruptcy. Don't forget that Ms. Cooper voted on 3/19 FOR a shortened balloting period, to accommodate to AA's demands for a signed, sealed, and delivered concession package. Hardly a strident cry of warning from Ms. Cooper as to the entire process.

When did Ms. Cooper specifically warn APFA to begin negotiations? Be prepared to provide written documentation predating the actual negotiations.

When did Ms. Cooper "beg" to be part of negotiations? Please provide written documentation.

When did Ms. Cooper warn APFA about the 'wolf cry" of the bankruptcy? Be prepared to provide written documentation. (Gee, I thought, as stated above, that Ms. Cooper wanted APFA to begin negotiations MUCH earlier, but then you state that she did not believe the company to be truthful about bankruptcy claims. Which is it? Did she believe that negotiations were necessary or not? Make up your mind.)

Where exactly, and when, did a TWA person post about the bonuses going to AA management? Be prepared to provide written documentation, not just assertions and conjecture from some TWA Monday morning quarterback. Interesting that this never came up during the court hearings in Brooklyn in June. Hmmmm...

 

[L1011Ret]

The TWA flight attendants did not sign away their rights for seniority. They signed away their rights to a negotiated settlement under Allegheny Mohawk rules. That was in their contract and they were required to give that up by AA. In fact if you read AA's documents, they hired a facilitator and fully expected APFA to meet with the IAM to resolve the seniority issues. AA insisted that the TWA/IAM provisions of their labor contract mirror those of the AA workforce. Therefore, when TWAers were moved to AA their company seniority dates were changed for various leaves granted the TWA F/As when under the TWA/IAM contract. Many TWA F/As lost company seniority at AA due to "butterfly leaves" and other kinds of leaves granted at TWA where thy did not result in loss of any seniority. So, the bottom line is they did not sign away any rights for seniority, only rights to have seniority granted a specific way. As for all the other requests for documentation, if you get Ms. Cooper's testimony at the Injunction hearing, I believe every issue you have inquired about is covered. To be informed you should have a copy of that document rather than just demanding from others.

 

[StraaightTaalk]

As for all the other requests for documentation, if you get Ms. Cooper's testimony at the Injunction hearing, I believe every issue you have inquired about is covered. To be informed you should have a copy of that document rather than just demanding from others.

Not true...When an individual, such as JNS, makes assertions as s/he did in her/his first post, I expect them to provide the relevant substantiation. Lacking such documentation, her/his post is nothing more than opinion and conjecture, with no apparent basis in reality.

 

[jsn25911]

Reply to Straight Talk:

Here is a perfect example how Ward twist and turns things to get off the real issue.

Who said anything about Cooper? not in my post - only in your post.

Who said anything about Cooper calling the wolf call of bankruptcy? Not in my post only in your post. (I was referring to all the post made on APFA).

Ward can not stick to the issues so he talks around them - very much like the way you just did.

 

[StraaightTaalk]

Reply to Straight Talk:

Here is a perfect example how Ward twist and turns things to get off the real issue.

Who said anything about Cooper? not in my post - only in your post.

Who said anything about Cooper calling the wolf call of bankruptcy? Not in my post only in your post. (I was referring to all the post made on APFA).

Ward can not stick to the issues so he talks around them - very much like the way you just did.

Ok, if not Cooper, then WHOM?

Your sweeping generalizations, allusions, and inferences indicate to me that you have not a clue of what you speak.

Ironically, I vigorously opposed the Restructuring Agreement, as I believe, the BOD, Ms. Cooper included (with regard to the 3/19 resolution to shorten the balloting) acted illegally.

I just cannot agree with you on your other generalized accusations.

 

[jsn25911]

Before APFA closed the APFA board there were many post concering the following:
Post about how AA was crying "wolf"
Post about the bonus checks that management was going to receive -it was originally posted the day before the T/A vote.
TWA f/a's explained there were ways to give the dollar amount without destroying the contract. They had the very experience that the apfa should have utilized.. Even TWA's worst contract was never as bad as the present AA contract. However, unfortunately, it fell on deaf ears because of the scare tactics that apfa presented to the membership.

By focusing on other things apfa avoided the real issues - that being preserving the contract.

There is a chance to change all this - but not under Wards leadership (he is working for the company and not the f/a's). It is time to elect other leadership. I am willing to give any one else a chance except for the Ward group. I am not telling people who to vote for - only saying that we need to focus on changing the contract and not being scared by other issues.

 

[StraaightTaalk]

Before APFA closed the APFA board there were many post concering the following:
Post about how AA was crying "wolf"
Post about the bonus checks that management was going to receive -it was originally posted the day before the T/A vote.
TWA f/a's explained there were ways to give the dollar amount without destroying the contract. They had the very experience that the apfa should have utilized.. Even TWA's worst contract was never as bad as the present AA contract. However, unfortunately, it fell on deaf ears because of the scare tactics that apfa presented to the membership.

By focusing on other things apfa avoided the real issues - that being preserving the contract.

There is a chance to change all this - but not under Wards leadership (he is working for the company and not the f/a's). It is time to elect other leadership. I am willing to give any one else a chance except for the Ward group. I am not telling people who to vote for - only saying that we need to focus on changing the contract and not being scared by other issues.

You are now changing your story...

Your original post said that TWAers "begged" APFA, inferring the APFA leadership, as opposed to random posts on an Internet message board, to allow them to participate in the negotiations. Demanding inclusion, in a formalized manner, is very different from the often semi-coherent polemics I normally see on Internet message boards.

The TWA flight attendants set new lows for compensation among flight attendants of the major airlines. You and your colleagues continually assert that your work rules and scheduling flexibility made up for the shortfall in your hourly rate. However, it is a mathematical certainty that, if you are compensated at a much lower rate of pay, no matter how flexible your schedule, and no matter how closely you can group your trips, FOR EACH HOUR WORKED, YOU ARE BEING PAID LESS, and BEING PAID LESS OVERALL.

The massive blunder of your 1986 strike shows exactly how "on top of the game" the TWA flight attendants really are/were.

Again, you failed to answer my question, posed to you in my first response...If the TWA flight attendants are/were such experts in labor relations and how to run an independent union, then what happened to IFFA?

 

[Veritas]

A message from Patt Gibbs:

Last week I was directed to a website in connection with our upcoming national officer elections. Here is what I saw: A picture of my face pasted on Hitler's uniform and accompanied by a large swastika. A picture of Brett Durkin, Candidate for Vice President with the word "Queer" pasted on his face. An ethnic slur regarding Cathy Herman Lukensmeyer's (Candidate for Treasurer) name. A photo of Tommie Hutto Blake, Candidate for President and next to it a tray of medical torture instruments. One of the candidates on the Rock Solomon slate was derided as a homophobic bigot on this website. Who will be the next target?

Was I hurt and appalled? Of course. As a grandchild of Jewish immigrants I cannot help but be affected by seeing my face over Hitler's and a swastika purporting to depict me as a Nazi! Ethnic slurs - gay bashing? I thought that we, the flight attendants of American Airlines who have been through so much together would be able to disagree on an adult level - passionately debate issues while remaining respectful and courteous. I thought we were all better people than that. What's next - a black candidate with a noose around their neck? Physical violence and threats against one's family? It's so discouraging to know that there are some amongst us who will seeming stoop to any depth necessary to remain in power. I have never thought a union office was worth the price of my integrity, but obviously there are those who do. It's an ill and chilling wind that blows through those bitter, barren souls. Do I know who they are? I can say that I know for a fact where the pictures used on that hate crime website came from. I know that George Price, APFA Communications Coordinator took the pictures of me, Brett Durkin and Greg Hildreth at APFA during an official meeting involving the 737 Staffing Study. A similar degrading picture of Leslie Mayo appeared on another website in the last several days that Ms.Mayo has identified as coming from Linda Lanning, APFA Secretary,and I know for a fact that the remainder came from APFA archive files. You must ask yourself who in this campaign is so hateful, desperate and spiteful that they would promote such intolerance of our diversities within our union?

Let me address two more issues. This campaign in not about me. I am not a candidate for office and I do not intend to "run" this union. Do not make the mistake of co-joining your brain with anyone's. Use the magnificent intelligence endowed to you alone by your Creator to make your decisions about your life. Rest assured that I have no ambition to be this union's general counsel (a job I think is overrated and overpaid and should be revamped). I am extremely proud of the amazing success of the System Board Department under Jeff Bott's leadership for the last four years. It truly is the only bright spot in our recent history. The record is impeccable and I was an integral part of that success. Success to the unsuccessful is often a threat.

The other thing this campaign is not about is TWA. I was there in April of 2001 when Sherry Cooper came to address our Board. She asked for, and I quote, "a dialogue and a process". What she got was a chilling wall of silence and a disrespect so deep that I went outside, put my face between my hands, and bowed my head and cried. I never thought I would see the day when the Union I help to found would treat another Union with such utter ill will. Amidst the background of the callous leering faces of many of our national officers and Board members, a few of us managed to craft the resolution which preserved TWA seniority at STL only while protecting all of yours. The shouts of "Just staple them" still ring in my ears. Don't you wonder why we are the only union at American with lawsuits and charges involving TWA. I'll tell you why - the pilots and the ground engaged in a "dialogue" and found a "process". It's way behind them - with no negative impact on their seniority. Read the arbitrator's award in the TWU cases on the TWA integration. Read the Judge's decision on the application filed by TWA for a temporary restraining order. Don't co-opt your good mind and common sense. Don't be gullible enough to buy into the rhetoric of the Ward slate that only he will defend your seniority. That is a patent, hideous lie for a "fear" vote. The deliberate and malicious demolition of our relationship with our fellow unionists at TWA must end. We have the seniority dispute. Both sides will make their case. A Judge or a jury will decide. Not anyone else. I am confident the resolution I wrote will prevail. On all other issues we should be extending the biggest olive branch we can find.

While you prepare to celebrate the holiday season with your family and friends, look deep inside yourself and decide whether or not the type of attacks of intolerance by those who claim to be looking out for your best interest really are, if you agree in democracy and not hate related intolerance than express that by who you vote for...send a clear message!

Patt A. Gibbs

IDF FA

 

[L1011Ret]

I guess Ms. Gibbs says it all. It would appear that she is more of a human being than many of the APFA posters who spew hated for a small group of people who firmly believe an injustice was done. Then there are those who started the BB Ms. Gibbs makes mention of - a board that would appear to be a candidate for "hate crimes" prosecution. As I hear more and more over the years, it is not AA but APFA that is the real problem. I would hope this hatred would cease and desist but as long as there is an election coming up there is little chance. It is not TWA or AA that is the problem, it is APFA itself.

 

[L1011Ret]

I would like to add that Ms. Gibbs in crafting the integration agreement so that AAers and TWAers could both keep their seniority actually prevented any real integration of TWA/AA F/As. Essentially she said to TWAers, go to the back of the bus and commute for life. The best way to ensure that hatred endures is never to have to talk or associate with the hated group. That way you can keep your hated alive because your stereotypical views are never challenged by reality. This psychotic process - no reality testing - drives a lot of the hated in the world. Ms. Gibbs would have us believe she is trying to address this issue by reaching out but she is the author she claims of this agreement which ensured the hatred would be carried forever. Based on reading her posts I do NOT believe it was her intention to create this problem, it appears as she tells it to be a political solution to a very difficult problem. Unfortunately the solution forced forced upon her by the "staple them" crowd may come back to haunt APFA.

 

[MiAAmi]

Based on reading her posts I do NOT believe it was her intention to create this problem, it appears as she tells it to be a political solution to a very difficult problem. Unfortunately the solution forced forced upon her by the "staple them" crowd may come back to haunt APFA.

The "staple them crowd" is the majority of the dues paying members of APFA. Majority wins in this case and the elected officials have an obligation to protect their members. (TWA'ers were not dues paying members of APFA at that time)

 

[jsn25911]

'''

 

[L1011Ret]

Yes they are the majority and so they will defend the "Integration Agreement" - actually it is more like no integration possible agreement - for the membership. It is to be expected. There seems to be great anxiety about a TWAer getting elected. It hardly makes sense since APFA is controlled by the BOD and any TWAer elected would be able to make no more than minimal impact on the BOD.