Gas Prices -- the Cause

[KCFlyer]

Maybe not..........maybe he can afford it. If it was that painful he would buy a Prius.

Judging from his comments at the pump, it was pretty painful

Isn't that a little judgmental? How do you know what he uses his Yukon for? For all you know he could be using it to tow a large trailer to deliver food to the homeless shelter but today was his day off. When you purchase a Prius does Toyota give you a certificate that allows you to be critical of others who don't have one?

Unless he's in the habit of removing the trailer hitch between uses, there wasn't one on the back. No...Toyota doesn't give me any certificate...does GM give out certificates that permit the owner of an H2 to ride inches off the bumper of the smaller car in front of them to intimidate them to go faster?

Yes, people can drive what they want. I just think we need to give them more credit than you do. I think they do care about using energy.

I don't...if they did they would have opted for something that gets a bit better mileage...a sedan, or perhaps a minivan. They didn't seem to care at all when gas was under $2 a gallon...and though many are devout "free marketeers", they seem to forget the old "supply and demand" rule and when gas goes up, they don't seem to be willing to recognize that maybe THEY played a role in the increase.

Many can't afford a Prius and for some a Prius won't suit their needs. This is a free country. Free to choose what you drive and even free to criticize those who drive what you don't.

If they can't afford a fully loaded Prius for under $30k, what in the world are they doing driving a $50k SUV? Yes - we are certainly free to drive what we want. But from my observations (and this goes beyond my Prius owning days) - if the the neighbor bought a Blazer, the other neighbor bought a Suburban...and the other neighbor bought the decked out Denali...and the next neighbor bought an H2. It just seemed like we had to get bigger and bigger. And then we wonder why gas prices go up.

As for "hauling things" - a big reason people give for needing an SUV We had to move a disk rack from an old IBM AS/400 (about the size of a refrigerator). We took a guys Suburban...it wouldn't fit. We went back and got my Windstar minivan - went in with room to spare. But somehow the Suburban has the better reputation as a "hauler" than a minivan.

 

[Seatacus]

Judging from his comments at the pump, it was pretty painful

I am sure when it gets too painful he'll whip out the checkbook and purchase that Prius. I don't have that option. My checkbook doesn't have a surplus to purchase another vehicle(daughter in college). I'll keep driving my 95 windstar and pay extra for gas. Buying a new vehicle would have a break even way in the future.

No...Toyota doesn't give me any certificate...does GM give out certificates that permit the owner of an H2 to ride inches off the bumper of the smaller car in front of them to intimidate them to go faster?

This has nothing to do with the price of gas.

But from my observations (and this goes beyond my Prius owning days) - if the the neighbor bought a Blazer, the other neighbor bought a Suburban...and the other neighbor bought the decked out Denali...and the next neighbor bought an H2. It just seemed like we had to get bigger and bigger. And then we wonder why gas prices go up.

It's not like this in my neighborhood. Sorry, can't relate.

 

[Cosworth]

I believe this. You should drive the most fuel efficient vehicle that you can afford and that is appropriate for the work/driving you do. A construction worker who hauls around a lot of gear is not expected to be driving a Chevy Aveo. I would not reasonably expect someone who lives somewhere where there is extreme weather (hot/cold/blizzards/rain) to drive a sccoter as their primary source of transportation.

I think it is obvious from looking at the pickups and SUV's on the road that they are not used to tow/haul things on a regular basis unless you consider the lone butt in the drivers seat as part of that equation. Here in DFW if the ratio of hauling to non haulers is 1:20 I would be surprised. They were bought as a status symbol, because people wanted some thing big and because everyone else seemed to have one. It is wasteful pure and simple.

Being able to afford the fuel is not relevant to the conversation. There is a finite supply of fossil fuel. It is becoming more expensive because there are more hands in the cookie jar looking for a share of the supply India and China are growing exponentially. The guy using the Pickup or SUV as a commuter vehicle is using up a larger portion of of that finite supply. His/her selfishness is having an effect on the price I pay for fuel due to the fact that he/she is increasing demand more than someone who drives a more efficient vehicle.

People can drive what they choose but there should be strong incentives to drive more efficient vehicles and strong incentives not to drive inefficient vehicles. I believe I mentioned elsewhere that I think registration should be taxed based on weight and horse power. The only exception should be for commercial vehicles and the controls over that need to be revamped so that a soccer mom can not claim an exemption to drive her kid to soccer in a Excursion. Fuel needs to be taxed higher with an exemption for truckers. We need to start a massive investment in public transportation in all major cities and a second massive investment in public trains between cities. We need to start production of a 200 mile range electric vehicle based on existing small car platforms and get them on the road with government subsidies based on income. The subsidy would be based on the trade in existing none/less-fuel efficient vehicles.

I am sure there will be those who do not want to get out of their big truck and who will scream that their freedoms are being taken away. Well screw them. We are running out of fuel and the cost is going up for everyone and the economy is going down the tube (in part because of the fuel crunch) the air is becoming harder to breath (look at the breathing disorder stats) and you can't always have what you want.

Fuel prices have always increased over the long term, never decreased. I can remember 3 massive increased periods, 70's, the one several years ago and this summer. That is 3 warning shots for us to get off our lazy collective butts and do something other than #### and moan about the price and ask to drill in ANWAR and off shore. Had we made a move to more efficient vehicles back in the 70's we would have been so far ahead of the curve it would be laughable.

I know I am preaching to deaf, blind mutes on this issue. People are so self absorbed in their own world and the idea of making a sacrifice for the greater good is so removed from the thought process of this country that the chances of it happening are quite remote. And yet these same people will complain again next year when the price of gas passes $5 a gallon.

 

[KCFlyer]

I am sure when it gets too painful he'll whip out the checkbook and purchase that Prius. I don't have that option. My checkbook doesn't have a surplus to purchase another vehicle(daughter in college). I'll keep driving my 95 windstar and pay extra for gas. Buying a new vehicle would have a break even way in the future.

That didn't address my question...if the guy at the pump is whining about the high price of gas happens to be driving a $50k SUV, how come he can't afford a fully loaded Prius for under $30k? And your 95 Windstar is getting a lot better mileage than the guy in the blinged out $50k SUV...I know - I used to own a Windstar. As I said - when it comes to hauling things, you can run rings around the Suburban...you take the seats out of a Windstar with that huge rear door and you can carry things that Suburban owners could only dream about. And still get considerably better mileage.

This has nothing to do with the price of gas.

Neither did your comment "When you purchase a Prius does Toyota give you a certificate that allows you to be critical of others who don't have one?". Just wondering if manufacturers are giving out certificates...mine permitting me to be judgemental...then do the makers of SUV's give out certificates allowing the owner to intimidate the drivers of smaller vehicles? Because some sure seem to try to use the heft of the vehicle to intimidate.

It's not like this in my neighborhood. Sorry, can't relate.

Don't know where you live, but it's sure that way in the upper middle class neighborhoods in the midwest, or as Cosworth mentions - in Dallas.

 

[777 fixer]

I was picking up my two labradors at the vet...I had my Prius (folded down the rear seat) and was having them hop up in the back. I was closing the hatch when a Yukon Denali pulled into the spot next to mine and unloaded his Yorkie. It was just him and his Yorkie, but I guess you need the cargo capacities of a Suburban for such tasks.

What was your previous car KC, a Chrysler 300M? What was the difference between you and him when you were picking up your labs in a 300M? Other than your gas mileage was a bit better?

 

[777 fixer]

That didn't address my question...if the guy at the pump is whining about the high price of gas happens to be driving a $50k SUV, how come he can't afford a fully loaded Prius for under $30k? And your 95 Windstar is getting a lot better mileage than the guy in the blinged out $50k SUV...I know - I used to own a Windstar. As I said - when it comes to hauling things, you can run rings around the Suburban...you take the seats out of a Windstar with that huge rear door and you can carry things that Suburban owners could only dream about. And still get considerably better mileage.

Not every person driving an SUV spent $50K on it. Some people spent a lot less. I'm guessing those people did the math and realized that it's not that economic to trade in a car that's either paid for or one they own money on. Especially if they are like Seatacus and have a kid in college.

Yes, someone who spent $50K on an SUV could probably afford a Prius. However I have to wonder if that purchase would be based on economics and not vanity. Let’s face it; if you can afford a $50K car you can afford the gas.

 

[KCFlyer]

What was your previous car KC, a Chrysler 300M? What was the difference between you and him when you were picking up your labs in a 300M? Other than your gas mileage was a bit better?

My gas mileage was a LOT better. I also didn't have two labs with the 300M. I figure even with the 300M, I was getting about DOUBLE the gas mileage of your typical SUV. I could carry 5 passengers and the trunk space was enough to carry their luggage as well. Didn't need a big assed truck to take me to work, take my kid to soccer, or go to the grocery store.

 

[777 fixer]

My gas mileage was a LOT better. I also didn't have two labs with the 300M. I figure even with the 300M, I was getting about DOUBLE the gas mileage of your typical SUV. I could carry 5 passengers and the trunk space was enough to carry their luggage as well. Didn't need a big assed truck to take me to work, take my kid to soccer, or go to the grocery store.

You could have done the same with a car smaller than a 300M.

 

[KCFlyer]

Let’s face it; if you can afford a $50K car you can afford the gas.

Really? Maybe back in the "old days" when gas company credit cards had to be paid off each month. But with a large number of American's in debt up to their ears, I think it's easy to put it on the Visa and make minimum monthly payments for the gas.

 

[KCFlyer]

You could have done the same with a car smaller than a 300M.

That's why I bought a Prius 3 and a half years ago.

 

[Seatacus]

Don't know where you live, but it's sure that way in the upper middle class neighborhoods in the midwest, or as Cosworth mentions - in Dallas.

Seattle ( home to tree-huggers and libs), about 5 miles from where Bill Gates lives. I gave up trying to keep up with him years ago.

 

[Seatacus]

People can drive what they choose but there should be strong incentives to drive more efficient vehicles and strong incentives not to drive inefficient vehicles.

I can understand the incentives to be fuel efficient but not the incentives not to drive inefficient vehicles. Are you talking about taxing or penalizing those with gas guzzlers?

 

[KCFlyer]

I can understand the incentives to be fuel efficient but not the incentives not to drive inefficient vehicles. Are talking about taxing or penalizing those with gas guzzlers?

I wouldn't oppose that. They already make someone who wants to drive a Ferrari pay a "gas hog" tax...and they get better mileage than most SUV's, it's just that SUV's have been exempted from fuel economy rules for all these years. Look at a pack of cigarettes...the tobacco company and merchants and middleman would make a profit at 50 cents a pack, but go to the local qwikie mart and it costs you $5 a pack. That extra $4.50 is federal and state taxes. It's because smoking is bad for you and it's a way to discourage the habit. Well...SUV's are proving to be pretty bad for us, so why not implement something to "dis-incent" someone from buying one? If someone really NEEDS a vehicle like that for their work...exempt them from the tax -however, do what Oklahoma does and make them put COMMERCIAL VEHICLE across the back. Nothing distracts from bling bling like COMMERCIAL VEHICLE in big orange letters across the back of the Escalade. That way, people still have a choice - if you feel you just gotta have a suburban assault vehicle as your daily commuter, then you are free to do so...just pay the "sin tax" that's associated. If you want to avoid the sin tax, then you pay the price of vanity with the COMMERCIAL VEHICLE along the back of the truck.

Edited to add - I'd only do this for NEW vehicles...older ones would be "grandfathered"

 

[Seatacus]

That way, people still have a choice - if you feel you just gotta have a suburban assault vehicle as your daily commuter, then you are free to do so...just pay the "sin tax" that's associated. If you want to avoid the sin tax, then you pay the price of vanity with the COMMERCIAL VEHICLE along the back of the truck.

Edited to add - I'd only do this for NEW vehicles...older ones would be "grandfathered"

I get it now. People that drive inefficient vehicles that don't need to are sinners. Where does this stop? Is it only for vehicle sinners? Or does it continue into other areas where one might think people are not being efficient with our energy. What about the people that don't keep their tires inflated?

 

[KCFlyer]

I get it now. People that drive inefficient vehicles that don't need to are sinners. Where does this stop? Is it only for vehicle sinners? Or does it continue into other areas where one might think people are not being efficient with our energy. What about the people that don't keep their tires inflated?

Seatacus...American's have shown that in times of "crisis", they respond. Look at the 1970's....we responded by shifting to smaller more fuel efficient vehicles. Once the "crisis" passed, even though gas prices weren't any different, we once again shifted our focus to something that got even WORSE mileage. You'd have thought we would have learned that when we are dependent on something we have to import, we might want to conserve what we got. Carter tried suggesting that, but he was voted out and ridiculed...how dare he speak that America is in a malaise. He proposed capping oil imports to no more than what we imported in 1978. Today we import TWICE that amount, and with our current usage, even if we pumped ever available oil field on or off shore, we cannot produce enough to last us 20 years.

And no, you can't control what some people will do, but for the past 30 years or more, we have had "EPA" mileage ratings that were based on a car running with full tire pressure and tuned up. "Gas Hog" taxes were assessed on vehicles that had results of poor mileage. SUV's were exempted from those rules though...how about just having SUV's meet the same standards any other vehicle has to meet...and face the same penalty that any other vehicle has to face? Instead, we exempt them, and this administration actually gave TAX BREAKS for people driving SUV's....the bigger the truck, the bigger the tax break. The Federal government gave me a one time tax break of $2,500 when I bought the Prius. At the same time, a person using a Hummer as a "business vehicle" had several years to claim tax breaks that would equal the purchase price.


Whaddya say we just make SUV's meet all the regulations that any other "car" would have to meet...mileage or emissions...and let them stand or fall on their own merits. You want a big honking truck, pay the gas hog penalty for it. If you have a legitimate business need for one, waive the penalty, but do SOMETHING to make it less visually attractive so that we don't have housewives selling AVON driving an Escalades without penalty because it's a "business vehicle".