Here comes the judge!

[wts54]

I disagree with you lavman I still think you can take self-help action if
you want.Lets say employees all of them except 10% go out on strike
at a company like U or UAL .Whats U going to do fire all the thousands of
people that run the operation?? How soon would U or UAL be converted
to chapter 7?Oh thats right they will hire thousands of replacement workers
train them and get the operation running like a well oiled machine
in how many days,weeks,months? My 2 cents worth.

 

[LavMan]

Ichan did it with the AFA and had them replaced in less then three weeks.

 

[wts54]

I guess you partially answered my point but add in pilots,mechanics,
f/a's.What then would you guess U would do ? My guess would be if 70%
of the union employees struck the company there would be no recovery
but liquidation so to me the employees dont just have to bend over and
have a piledriver rammed where the sun dont shine.The investors dont
want to lose the hundreds of millions of dollars they have already invested
with U and UAL
lavman did you go to the 141 convention in SAN because thats where
Ms.Levine said you could strike a bankrupt carrier.If not are you in management because my gut feeling is you are,and if you arent is there any battle you would fight?
.

 

[USFlyer]

So, let's say the judge sides with ALPA... then what?! Unless the MBAs can figure out some amicable solution, it seems like ALPA is damned if they lose and damned if they win. Ditto with the company. On one hand US will have a very demotivated pilot work force, on the other they will have this huge pension obligation and no ATSB loan.

 

[LavMan]

If it feel under the RLA you contract cannot be touched until 60 days prior to the amendable date which is section 6. There are no provisions in the RLA for a contract to be abrogated.

Under BK code like in 82 when Lorenzo abrogated all the contracts and broke all the unions, so then Congress enacted sections 1113 and 1114 to prevent a blanket abrogation. The RLA does not mean squat when the company is in BK as BK code takes presidence, in the bilcoe case, go look it up.

 

[Andy S.]

[blockquote]
----------------
On 2/20/2003 8:32:43 PM LavMan wrote:

If it feel under the RLA you contract cannot be touched until 60 days prior to the amendable date which is section 6. There are no provisions in the RLA for a contract to be abrogated.

Under BK code like in 82 when Lorenzo abrogated all the contracts and broke all the unions, so then Congress enacted sections 1113 and 1114 to prevent a blanket abrogation. The RLA does not mean squat when the company is in BK as BK code takes presidence, in the bilcoe case, go look it up.
----------------
[/blockquote]

Correction. You need to get double your money back on that seminar. A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing....

 

[moosedog]

Wow, seems like everyone has an idea on what is right, but we all, including management, must wait for the judge's interpretation.
Rather than burn this place down, now that 29000 people followed the pilots lead to agree to concessions to save it, perhaps the pilots who can not live with whatever the pension outcome is could retire or move to a better job so those who were forced to downgrade or are on furlough(1800+) can decide if they want to work under the new deal. Each time I read about the # on furlough followed by let's burn this place down, strike, etc., I get confused. Why bring up the hardship of these 1800 if no one really cares because we are going to put Airways out of business; dash any hope they have of ever working for mainline again.

The unions at the other airlines have made it clear, USAirways commiting suicide will not bring a tear to their eyes, unless it is from laughter.

I hope, that is all I can do at this point, the pilots get something they can live with. I also hope they do not take away the chance to get out of bankruptcy and let us all have the chance to grow and regain lost ground. 33000 good people deserve that chance!! Best wishes to all.

 

[T-bone]

A simple question. How many bus drivers are out of work from NW,UA,AA, etc, and how long would it take to re-qualify them? A stike would be suicide for ALPA. Unfortunately the timing is all wrong. The company is holding all the guns. They have seen pilot solidarity in the past. They have probably made an educated guess of how many would cross a picket line. Add to that what they can get from the ranks of the unemployed. They know pilot honor or rather lack of. Not now. You'll lose this one.

 

[Andy S.]

[blockquote]
----------------
On 2/21/2003 6:12:48 AM LavMan wrote:

Andy S, back up your opinion with facts, otherwise your opinion is not worth anything. I have posted facts.

You have posted your opinion and you know what they say about them!
----------------
[/blockquote]

You have posted a mixture of "facts" and opinions. The problem is that about half of your "facts" are wrong, and several of your opinions are speculative.

Take for example this quote:

[blockquote]
----------------
Under BK code like in 82 when Lorenzo abrogated all the contracts and broke all the unions, so then Congress enacted sections 1113 and 1114 to prevent a blanket abrogation. The RLA does not mean squat when the company is in BK as BK code takes presidence, in the bilcoe case, go look it up.
-----------------
[/blockquote]

Congress did not enact 1113 because of Lorenzo. Congress acted in response to the 1984 Supreme Court of NLRA v. Bildisco & Bildisco (which you apparently try to reference in your comment about "bilcoe"). Section 1114, on the other hand, was enacted in reponse to the LTV bankruptcy.

But don't take my word for it. Anyone who wants to educate themselves about Section 1113 and labor law can start here:

http://www.law.msu.edu/lawrev/2001-4/Smith-Bales.pdf

There's a lot more material out there, but this will be a good start.

However, you are definitely missing the significant point here. That point is this:

SECTION 1113 IS NOT BEING INVOKED IN THE US AIRWAYS MOTION.

Do you understand the importance of this? In fact, the only part of Section 1113 that applies in this motion is Section 1113(f). Of course, any competent seminar attendee would know that paragraph (f) states that US Airways must abide by the labor contract until they have been relieved by their obligation by the Court under the provisions of Section 1113© or (e).

So LavMan, go back in read the article at the above URL. Then next time you want to make a claim about what can and cannot happen under the Bankruptcy Code, please cite the case law.

Andy S.

 

[usfliboi]

Lets all remember that we all are on the same team and each group has gone thru some nasty times. This is also a place where airline employees can get together to discuss issues and not bash each other. Lets be adults here PLEASE... I admire chip for saying what he says especially since most people know who he is . He has an opinion just like we all do . Doesnt make him right it just means he thinks and speaks plain and simple. If you disagree with him just say so in a polite way have facts to back it up as well. With that said I dont care what alpa and the company do to resolve this problem just resolve it. I frankly felt Dave did this to force the government to get involved all be it I may be wrong. Pilots arent busdrivers T bone they are highly qualified Pilots and i for one respect most of them because im the one in the rear hoping they know what they are doing and have been properly educated and compensated. I know if i put my mom or kids on a flight I believe i can trust that these people on the flight deck will do their very best to safely get my family and myself to where im going. We are sooooo close to emerging from bk and there will be another day when we can fight for what we have all lost. There are numerous battes in a war and i say in the end this company and others will see that employees arent happy when they are lining their pockets with the millions when we begin making money again and i believe that day will come soon sooner rather than later.

 

[LavMan]

Andy S, back up your opinion with facts, otherwise your opinion is not worth anything. I have posted facts.

You have posted your opinion and you know what they say about them!

 

[FlyingHippie]

Chip,
Do you believe in fairy tales too? You've bought into your own hype dude.

 

[kiloromeo]

U could easily handle a pilot strike...between the scabs and the surplus of pilots out there...not a problem. In fact after about a 6 month recovery process the airline would be in the Jet Blue and SWA cost and productivity playing field.

Chip..are you sure that international flying job offer you have in Aubu Dhabi with no pension is better than the one you have now?

 

[mrplanes]

moosedog:

The ONLY people that will spoil this party sit in offices in Crystal City. If they do what they committed to do the party will continue. They are the ones that hold the power to allow this company to emerge and prosper. Do not blame the wrong people for what may happen. Dave can do what is right, or he can do what is wrong. And what he does will determine what happens here. Not the pilots. Dave.

mr

 

[ClueByFour]

A slowdown will be stopped by the courts. And then ALPA national will get smacked, just like the APA was a few years ago. I hope the Harvard educated minds from ALPA have considered this.

As has been mentioned before, if ALPA had their stuff together at all, they would have seen this coming a mile away. The fact that it reached this point does not speak well of your Ivy League educated advisors....