How can American employees be more productive?

[RV4]

[blockquote]
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On 3/6/2003 147 PM j7915 wrote:

Talking about AMFA is not political? Particularly when the AMFA pusher posts cute little graphics, or advertises for the NRA? Makes derogatory remarks about anyone that seems to care for all working people as opposed to just "ME"?

----------------
[/blockquote]

Your idea of "taking care" of working people has already been exposed. Lower pay for more JOBS is your motto. It fact, in most work circles it commonly called "company suck A$$".

Who exactly are you making reference about that "cares for all working people"?

And now you are exposing your anti-NRA anti-Gun views?

Are you also anti-Constitution and anti-American along with your other Pine Street Comrades?

 

[Buck]

[blockquote]

Talking about AMFA is not political? Particularly when the AMFA pusher posts cute little graphics, or advertises for the NRA? Makes derogatory remarks about anyone that seems to care for all working people as opposed to just "ME"?

----------------
[/blockquote]
You are the first to mention AMFA in this thread. If you cared for the working people, you would not advocate the SRP/OSM classifications. And if you are a mechanic, you would do more for your craft and class, instead taking a full industrial unionism stance.

 

[Oliver Stone''s Apprentice]

[blockquote]
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On 3/6/2003 4:56:15 PM RV4 wrote:

[blockquote]
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On 3/6/2003 2:17:09 PM eolesen wrote:

In short, your comments reflect views that are from a HDQ desk job without a clue of reality.

----------------
[/blockquote]

If you say so, but equally in short, your comments (in this thread and in general) don't reflect anything else other than what happens within a 1 mile radius of your work location.

Have you ever actually worked anywhere other than a maintenance base?

I suspect I've spent more time in the airport as a nonrev than you have working at one.

 

[Hopeful]

so now NON-REVVING automatically qualifies eolesen to be an expert in all job classifications

 

[Buck]

Are you speaking of non-reving on personal business or company business? The difference between spending time in the airport as a D-2 or an A-10? Getting paid or not?

 

[Hopeful]

j7915:

The answer is simple. OSMs/SRPs were created at the expense of the aircraft mechanics. Had their classifications never been created, the need for more A&P's would exist and those performing the functions would be compensated at a higher rate. And before you reply with "well an A&P doesn't need to be in these less qualified areas," the issue is about loss of jobs.
Everytime there is a job to be taken away, it is usually at the expense of the aircraft mechanic. In 1983, when the mechanics lost pushbacks and deicing, I don't recall the TWU screaming of the loss of jobs. The reason they didn't care and approved of the change was because the jobs went to fleet service. I don't recall any fleet service clerks saying "gee,it's too bad the mechanics are losing work." Instead they hopped in those deicing trucks and tractors and reaped the benefits of having their numbers increase at the mechanics's expense. Now the proposals that the TWU has rejected contained the elimination of cabin service and this is totally unacceptable according to local 501 president. "This will never happen," he said.

So you see, j9715, nothing personal against OSM's and SRP's. Nothing personal at all, just business.

 

[j7915]

[blockquote]----------------On 3/7/2003 1228 AM Buck wrote: [blockquote]

Talking about AMFA is not political? Particularly when the AMFA pusher posts cute little graphics, or advertises for the NRA? Makes derogatory remarks about anyone that seems to care for all working people as opposed to just "ME"?

----------------
[/blockquote]
You are the first to mention AMFA in this thread. If you cared for the working people, you would not advocate the SRP/OSM classifications. And if you are a mechanic, you would do more for your craft and class, instead taking a full industrial unionism stance.
----------------[/blockquote]

OK, I'll take the AMFA back. For the rest would you explain what you have against SRPs/OSMs? They are doing jobs that they are qualified for, that are not economical at the "class and craft" rate, and hence would be outsourced to third party shops that would treat these workers a lot worse than at a major air carrier.

What is it about not being able to afford job-skill specific work at top wages that you don't understand? I have asked this question before: when you buy tires, do you demand that a SAE certified mechanics do the work, or do you settle for someone who is either doing tire mounting temporarily or maybe because for whatever reason he is topped out in that position?

Get over the industrial union bit, if Henry Ford had only given his highly skilled workers that famous raise, rather than every assembly line workers, it would not have set a precedent and it would not have upset any of his fellow businessmen quite as much.

 

[Buck]

[blockquote]
----------------
----------------[/blockquote]

OK, I'll take the AMFA back. For the rest would you explain what you have against SRPs/OSMs? They are doing jobs that they are qualified for, that are not economical at the "class and craft" rate, and hence would be outsourced to third party shops that would treat these workers a lot worse than at a major air carrier.

What is it about not being able to afford job-skill specific work at top wages that you don't understand? I have asked this question before: when you buy tires, do you demand that a SAE certified mechanics do the work, or do you settle for someone who is either doing tire mounting temporarily or maybe because for whatever reason he is topped out in that position?

Get over the industrial union bit, if Henry Ford had only given his highly skilled workers that famous raise, rather than every assembly line workers, it would not have set a precedent and it would not have upset any of his fellow businessmen quite as much.

----------------
[/blockquote]
What I have against the SRP/OSM classification is that it took away A&P jobs. Just as the proposal sent back to the company is going to remove a license from the engine shop. Why is it that you automatically agree with the companies position that they cannot afford to do work in house? Not only do you advocate the lowering of a qualified mechanics wages and his craft in general, you advocate programs that require licensed mechanics to be required a much longer time to reach the top pay of his profession. You have never answered what the outsourcing precentage is at American. What are the limitations?

The Scope of the TWU/AA agreement makes it limitless!

"(2) It is understood that nothing in this Article requires the maintenance of the present volume of work."

So is it now when the company is claiming to be within days of Bankruptcy that you continue to assit them with sub standard wages? You advocate the lowering of wages since 1983 with the B-scale and this has continued through today with the SRP/OSM. Comparing what type of tire I purchase and who installs has nothing to do with an airlines mechanics responsibility. Are saying that the unionized work force at Firestone are substandard technicians? We are talking about aircraft mechanics and moving a big chunk of aluminum through the air at high speed.

I will not get ovet the industrial union bit. As an advocate of this type of unionism you condone the liberal left wing agenda. If that is what you want then fine, but not all union members condone this socialist platform. There are registered Democrats within the TWU that vote Republican on a continual basis. Was Henry prounion? In this era did the workers have the benefits they do today? You continually live in the past with those of the old unionism. Yet your contract under Article 28 removes the Right to Strike that today Sonny Hall himself is fighting under the guise of Baseball Style Arbitration.

 

[RV4]

[blockquote]
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On 3/7/2003 835 AM eolesen wrote:

Have you ever actually worked anywhere other than a maintenance base?
----------------
[/blockquote]

No, and I am not the one claiming AA could replace unlicensed Crew Chief's with secretaries...YOU ARE!


[blockquote]
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On 3/7/2003 835 AM eolesen wrote:

I suspect I've spent more time in the airport as a nonrev than you have working at one.
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[/blockquote]

And being in a airport as a non-rev qualifies you for what? This would however be more experience than most OSM's have, so what?

 

[j7915]

[blockquote]----------------On 3/7/2003 131 PM Buck wrote: [blockquote]
----------------
----------------[/blockquote]

OK, I'll take the AMFA back. For the rest would you explain what you have against SRPs/OSMs? They are doing jobs that they are qualified for, that are not economical at the "class and craft" rate, and hence would be outsourced to third party shops that would treat these workers a lot worse than at a major air carrier.

What is it about not being able to afford job-skill specific work at top wages that you don't understand? I have asked this question before: when you buy tires, do you demand that a SAE certified mechanics do the work, or do you settle for someone who is either doing tire mounting temporarily or maybe because for whatever reason he is topped out in that position?

Get over the industrial union bit, if Henry Ford had only given his highly skilled workers that famous raise, rather than every assembly line workers, it would not have set a precedent and it would not have upset any of his fellow businessmen quite as much.

----------------
[/blockquote]
What I have against the SRP/OSM classification is that it took away A&P jobs. Just as the proposal sent back to the company is going to remove a license from the engine shop. Why is it that you automatically agree with the companies position that they cannot afford to do work in house? Not only do you advocate the lowering of a qualified mechanics wages and his craft in general, you advocate programs that require licensed mechanics to be required a much longer time to reach the top pay of his profession. You have never answered what the outsourcing precentage is at American. What are the limitations?

The Scope of the TWU/AA agreement makes it limitless!

"(2) It is understood that nothing in this Article requires the maintenance of the present volume of work."

So is it now when the company is claiming to be within days of Bankruptcy that you continue to assit them with sub standard wages? You advocate the lowering of wages since 1983 with the B-scale and this has continued through today with the SRP/OSM. Comparing what type of tire I purchase and who installs has nothing to do with an airlines mechanics responsibility. Are saying that the unionized work force at Firestone are substandard technicians? We are talking about aircraft mechanics and moving a big chunk of aluminum through the air at high speed.

I will not get ovet the industrial union bit. As an advocate of this type of unionism you condone the liberal left wing agenda. If that is what you want then fine, but not all union members condone this socialist platform. There are registered Democrats within the TWU that vote Republican on a continual basis. Was Henry prounion? In this era did the workers have the benefits they do today? You continually live in the past with those of the old unionism. Yet your contract under Article 28 removes the Right to Strike that today Sonny Hall himself is fighting under the guise of Baseball Style Arbitration. ----------------[/blockquote]

Buck you better start a massive publicity campaign to educate everyone that Boeing is using non-licensed labor to build, assemble, and service aircraft.

As for eliminating A&P slots what part of "the customer will not pay A&P wages for the guy painting the aircraft, gluing foam to a seat pan, etc." don't you want to understand? If you'd rather have those jobs farmed out why don't you come out and admit it?

If you want a SWA type operation, good, but don't hide behind the times, as you accuse others of doing. Matter of fact no one has yet posted the payscale of SWA's virtual overhaul mechanics.

You did not answer my question as to whether you demand that the guy putting tires on your car, at whatever store you buy should be a licensed auto mechanic or not. I am satisfied if he has been trained to do his particular job and is paid accordingly, how about you?

As for condoning a socialist union platform, where did you ever see a conservative union platform? You must be thouroughly enjoying our conservative, capitalist economy. I had not even brought up politics, I simple prefer living in a country where there are as few "street" people and the underclass is a small as possible. You ought to really visit S.America, not just the tourist traps, travel thru the country, it is an eye opener.

 

[AAStew]

Wingnaprayer, on your earlier comment to conslidate part-time employees, it is beneficial for the company to tkeep them as such. With F/A's sure we keep our benefits, but because we can afford to work part-time most of us have another source of income and insurance benefits so we don't tax the company with those costs. Also most of us work more than half the months schedule but we only get credited 1/2 time for vacation and sick accrual. Statistically we also use less sick time, saving the company money there.
With other work groups, part-time employess have absolutely no benefits, saving the company quite a bit there. So why would the company ever eliminate part-time?
As far as I can see it it mutually beneficial. If it means there is overage at the bottom of the seniority list, it won't be helped by my going back to work fulltime! (By the way, I am not part-time right now,I have taken an overage leave, therefore saving some elses job)!

 

[Hopeful]

j7915:

The biggest problem IS the passenger. They want to spend only $89.00 coast to coast. But they will pay any price to have their car fixed buy a mechanic making more than an aircraft mechanic. They don't not buy new cars unless the car companies get car prices back to where they were in the 60's and 70's. If the job of an aircraft mechanic was so unimportant, why are federal licenses required? Boeing is a FACILITY. Like TULSA, AFW, AND MCI. Licenses are not required because they work under the Facility's certificate. Line maintenace mechanics arer required to have the license to work the aircraft. You want to know why, j7915?
L-I-A-B-I-L-I-T-Y

When the A&P holder signs for work accomplished and something goes wrong or even paperwork done incorrectly, American discloses to the FAA and says

"THERE HE IS, FAA, THATS THE ONE WHO SCREWED UP! YOU SEE, WE DISCLOSED SO DON'T FINE US, OK?

 

[AAStew]

Paper holds whatever you put on it. The company pays the insurance into a self insured fund. If we don't use it, they don't lose it. On my six months so far, I have probably claimed $300 and they have coivered about $100.
Flight Benefits cost them nothing! Maybe some fuel costs but not $12,000 a year. Plus I am on the higher spectrum of the pay scale so they are paying another flight attendant less than half of what they paid me! Do not believe eberything you read. If AA were not coming out on the winning side of these leaves they would never be offered. Let us also not forgetn the unemployment they are not being charged against by having me on leave, so therefore I am saving the company money. They will never tell you the truth....

 

[TWAnr]

[blockquote]
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On 3/8/2003 8:05:09 AM AAStew wrote:

(By the way, I am not part-time right now,I have taken an overage leave, therefore saving some elses job)!
----------------
[/blockquote]

The company claims that each overage leave costs it $12,000 annually. Those on OVL accrue full seniority, vacation and sick time while on leave; they also receive full insurance coverage and normal pass privileges (including OAL).

 

[Buck]

This conversation is about airline mechanics and what they can do to be more productive. Your answer to their productivity is to lower their wages so the customer can afford it. “The customer won’t pay†So you advocate substandard wages for mechanics to accommodate the customer. The customer paid for American A-scale mechanics to do all of the work until 1983 when your “I’ve got mine brother†philosophy came about. Screw the mechanic that is not here yet so I can continue to prosper. That is real unionism.

It is the company that constantly compares themselves to Southwest. We at American have non-licensed mechanics. Some of them work on the aircraft docks. However the SRP/OSM in also non-licensed mechanics. Are they paid as well as those at Boeing? I never said I wanted any work farmed out. I said the mechanics as professionals need to look out for themselves. It is my opinion that Fleet Service should be separated from the mechanics. They need to find their own path in the industry. Look at their company proposal, if accepted, they would virtually cease to exist. But you would have the mechanics carry them in an industrial union cry of “Strength in Numbersâ€. Something that has not been used in my 19 years by the TWU. In fact what I am told is that the TWU has not show any real strength since 1968 or 1969. And then they ended the walk out with basically no gains. I never said I wanted a Southwest operation, Carty did. I said if we are to be compared to them then the compensation of the work groups should be comparable also. I cannot post a virtual pay scale for maintenance that does not exist. Just as you cannot post documentation on the farm out percentage at AA. As for your tire question, you condone the lowering of the wages of aircraft mechanics to the same standard of who puts a tire on your car? With the TWU’s record of farm out, how do you know whose been working on your precious aircraft parts? As for the person putting the tire on, I do watch the installation at Robertson Tire. I have used them for years. I never asked what they pay their people. Do you take your vehicles to the manufacturer to have new tire installed? Even if you do, maybe you can afford it, but those with the sub standard wages that you advocate cannot. We are not talking about auto mechanic wages. If you want to do that start another thread. Then we can see that their wages outpace ours anyway.

I never said anything about a Conservative platform. I said that under the Socialist platform that our dues are used for the liberal left wing agenda and that many members do not vote for, especially in TUL, yet they continue to pay for. I think you had better rethink the street people and the under class statement. Your advocating of the lowering of a professionals wages is comparable to making them the underclass that you despise.
What does the condition of the South America have to do with anything?

What about the fight against Baseball style arbitration and article 28 of the TWU/AA agreement?