HRDC Funding

[Jammed left]

Now I might be a little out of the loop, because I got my funding from HRDC about 4 years ago, but they did cap it at $10000.....Letters were a huge help, and the research that I did was pretty thorough...like was said above
almost like a business plan.
As far as more low time pilots lining up...I don't see how that isn't a good thing...more competition = better selection of potential candidates....We all pay into these plans with out taxes....there is no reason that these guys shouldn't get some of that back.

 

[Over-Talk]

Yes, those students did pay taxes into the Government (HRDC) slush fund.....but so did the rest of us !!
I think the student should be entitled to some sort of tax break on the money he earned and then spent on post-secondary education, or even some help with a student loan, but I don't like the idea of a cash hand-out.
Even tax breaks and student loans cost other taxpayers (me) more taxes, but I can handle that .....it's a small part of the cost of the society we live in. But straight cash handouts are not acceptable when so many hospital beds are empty due to a lack of Government funds !!

The idea of more students equalling more competition is not true. The real competitors in the race have saved the money beforehand, so they can search for work once licenced, (instead of having to work at a job just to pay back a loan). The motivation that drives these guys is obvious to Chief Pilots, and will be essential as they head into the wilderness with an expensive helicopter and several lives onboard.
Since I trained 21 years ago I have seen this topic come up too often.
Several of the students I trained with had their full tuition and a salary paid by Workers Compensation.........none of them are working as pilots, mainly because none of them really wanted to work at being a pilot, they just thought it would be a cool thing to do before they were fit enough to go back to their old job.
It's no wonder our WCB premiums and taxes are so high !!

The "business plan" is also a load of carp as far as I've seen. (My compliments, though, to you guys that managed to sell it to HRDC).
Let's face it, jobs are damn hard to find for 100 hour pilots, so a "business plan" is just a scam......it won't count for anything when you have to knock on doors looking for work.
It seems that if you write more pages, the more that an HRDC staffer will be impressed (or bored) and be prepared to sign-off on the deal.
More pages does not increase the chance of getting a job, just the chance of getting a free hand-out !!

I sincerely wish the best of luck to all you students, I was one once and remember it well.
It took years to save all that cash, then just 100 hours to spend it all !!
But the $50,000 fee, and the difficult job search is what seperates the men from the boys (the gonna-bes from the wanna-bes) in our business. The training fee and search will seem easy once you get a job and are faced with some real challenges in Northern Canada during February, low on fuel, with weather getting worse, one hour until pitch-dark, and 3 passengers (and all your families) relying on you.
This is what "the right stuff" is all about, not some free hand-out, or being a recently immigrated native French Canadian female fisherman in a wheel-chair !!

Most of you students are too young to remember the free-spending days of Trudeau and Mulroney.......we are still paying off their debts !! We simply couldn't afford all the things they wanted........and now 20 years later we are still over-spending on the wrong things.....free hand-outs to helicopter pilot students being one of them.

Thanks for your attention, end of rant.

 

[cap]

The problem of finding work as a "newbie" helicopter pilot has always been there, BUT with one huge difference compared to many years ago. At one time there was no such person as a 100hr helcopter pilot fresh out of training and that's all the background he/she had in aviation. You got your Commercial F/W, put in the required hours you needed and saved up for the helicopter endorsementr while working. NOW when you went knocking on doors, etc., etc., you were only really "green" in one area and that was in the operation of the helicopter. Many times you would take that helicopter and go back into the areas that you had flown F/W and quite often into areas where the clientele and locals knew you from before. Put another way, the operators will have a tendency to have a harder look at the F/W pilot with 500-1000hrs of bush time and not much experience on helicopters than the 100hr pilot that hasn't flown for his first customer yet. The F/W bush pilot has had enough times to wonder and decide whether he should "pull that 180" and go back because of various reasons and the other just "thinks" he knows what he would do. These are all understandable factors if you happen to be hiring someone to take your investment over the horizon and disappear for 6 weeks, maybe 800 miles away.

The numbers of R/W pilots knocking on doors was also less as a result and also because many found comfort in where they were in fixed-wing aviation and gave up on the thought of the R/W endorsement. At one time, it was not uncommon for pilots to fly R/W in the summer and return to F/W in the winter or visa versa. This also was a factor in there being more companies around that had both and could move bodies around, therefore getting away from constantly hiring and letting people go depending on the seasons and/or business factors.

The problem was therefore magnified when the 100hr course was put in place and we have the ensuing problems that it has generated. So in a sense, the industry created this present "problem" all on its own, by increasing the numbers looking for that first job. This all doesn't change the present problem, but was meant to explain that it's not really correct to compare "then" to "now" without taking note of the differences.

 

[duf]

Artic Front
Couldn't disagree with you more. In fact, it's insulting.
My entire family has been paying in to EI (UI in their day)... and they never collected a cent of it. FOR DECADES! We are not a 'freeloading" bunch. They'll never see that money again.
I have saved around $6000 towards the training and will probably get my yearly layoff in the winter from my 50k/year job...
A "Freebie"? I wouldn't call it that at all. If I get it, and I am sure I will (I have high points!), You'll never hear me complain when I see that EI deduction (ie. 1200/year for 35/years= 42,000)!!!!
Don't worry... I am not spending YOUR taxpaying money. YOURS went somewhere else!


😛 😛 :hide: :hide: I fully understand that paying ones dues is a must, and am fully prepared to do so

 

[arctic_front]

Duf:

I tried not to insult anyone, you included. But as other Poster's have also said, and agreed with my posts, A HRDC grant for training is not acceptable to me or a lot of other folks. A tax-deduction like they had in the old days was fine, but they stopped that. imagine if everybody who was on EI suddenly decided to become a pilot? if they all are now 100-hr pilots looking for a job, guess where that puts you? The reason its so difficult to get a job is because there are just too many wanna-be's. they do themselves a dis-service because they flood the market, and drive their own value down. How many 100 hr pilots have offered to work for free?....believe me...lots. if one does it, its TOO many. Employers love a keener that's willing to work for free.

A wise man once told me: " If you didn't EARN it, its not really yours" Apply that to getting a grant for a pilot's license. I've seen a few hundred low-time pilots come through the hangar door....all ready, willing and confident that they will set the aviation world on its ear. 90% can't imagine pushing a broom for two years, or rolling fuel drums in deep snow is what they just paid 50K for the priveledge of doing for $8/hr at some new job within sight of the machines they so desperately want to fly. The 10% that make the cut, go on to a great career, but the rest walk away dejected. "oh WAIT!" he says....."I'm one of those really hard working, keen guys...I know I'll have to pay my dues" "Just let me show you how smooth and wonderful I can fly a R-22.."

They all talk the talk....and if you got a freebie pilot's license, you'll be way less likely to push a broom, roll drums in deep snow, or drive from one end of this country to the other 6 times looking for a job. IF you spend the $50K that you worked like a slave to save up for a pilot's license, I'd wager that you'll try just that little bit harder to get that job.....THAT is the "RIGHT STUFF" I was refering to.

Go give it a shot.....Duf, I wish you all the best luck. the day you are buying beers for the crew on your 1000th hour, and you worked hard for every .2, that beer is gonna taste mighty sweet!

 

[Over-Talk]

Well said Arctic Front.

Duf, my compliments to you if you can get the funding. But that doesn't mean we support the concept of using Government funds for such a purpose.

Yes, some 100 hour pilots WILL be hired next year. But there will be too many others hanging around looking disappointed. To think that my tax dollars helped get them licenced for non-existent jobs makes me mad.

Here's what else makes me mad....
Pilots that want a "guaranteed job", regardless of whether their boss thinks they are a valuable asset to the company.
Thank goodness that is not part of our industry. Let's keep it that way.

There is no free lunch !!
Save the money, spend the money, hustle, smile, get a job, keep a job, it's that easy !!

My compliments to you guys that use the HRDC funding to your favour.
I'll just be glad when that is not part of our industry too.

 

[Jammed left]

Well, over talk

I hate to be the one to break it to you, that it is part of our industry. I know several (4 at least) that used the HRDC program to fund part of their training. They all work in the industry and are doing very well ( contributing back to the program that helped them with their tax dollars).

They are all good pilots with excellent attitudes and have done well in the business because of the chance that this program provided. Not all people trying to use the program are leeches looking for something cool to do, before they move on. Not all the people using the program are of the poor attitude that 'chief pilots can see when they walk through the door'.

I'm guessing a little bit here, so correct me if I'm wrong, but i think the programs are a little different now than the example that you provide of 21 years ago and the WCB program. I haven't heard of the whole training being paid for by the HRDC program. In fact, several years ago, i know it was capped at $10 000.

So, the program works in some cases...but, i'd just be interested to find out how many cases really don't work......

 

[412driver]

what about the days of Canadore???

alot of pilots came through that school with most of their training paid for....

i was one of those that scraped, begged, borrowed (but never stole) the money i needed to get my licence. i never had a "free ride".....

that being said, seeing the way our gov't throws away cash makes me think sometimes that if you can get a chunk, more power to you. but one thing to remember is the words of my first boss: "i won't hired a Canadore pilot, i don't like the idea of someone who didn't pay their own way"

i imagine some of that thinking still persists today???????

confidentiality keeps me from providing details but yes, HRDC provides FULL funding! that's 40K of your (and mine) tax dollars

my 2 bits for the day :wacko:

 

[Over-Talk]

Hi, J. Left, thanks for the good news on funded pilots, but my points remain the same,

1. My compliments to those that obtained the funding. If it's there, use it.

2. Extra compliments to those that are now working in the industry.

3. But how many pilots got funding, yet couldn't find work because there are more pilots than jobs ??

4. A "business plan" does not increase the chance of getting a job, just the chance of getting $10,000.

5. Multiply the unemployed pilots in point #3, by the $10,000 in point #4...we can't afford it !!
(Or multiplied by the $40K that 412 Driver mentions (and he instucts at a well-known school) !!

6. Just because it is part of our industry doesn't mean it should stay that way.


We presently face a shortage of skilled helicopter pilots. This will worsen in the future.
We should not be spending taxes to increase the number of new pilots when there is a surplus already.

If anything, Government funding should be given to operators that will hire and upgrade new pilots to a standard that is useful to the operator, i.e pipeline patrol, traffic watch etc.
How does this sound ??.....The pilot must be already Commercially licenced, the operator must hire the pilot for a minimum period at a specified respectable wage, and the operator must show log-book records of flight training actually completed.

Your thoughts please.

 

[412driver]

"If anything, Government funding should be given to operators that will hire and upgrade new pilots to a standard that is useful to the operator, i.e pipeline patrol, traffic watch etc.
How does this sound ??.....The pilot must be already Commercially licenced, the operator must hire the pilot for a minimum period at a specified respectable wage, and the operator must show log-book records of flight training actually completed."


now THAT'S a good idea!!!!!!

 

[duf]

Heard on the news today we have a 9 BILLION dollar surplus....
$45 BILLION was deducted from folks from EI, and It's been pointed out... that 8 BILLION of the 45 wasn't necessary.... Hmmm

 

[duf]

412 Driver-- That is a good idea!

 

[ABQ Approach]

Jammed Left...You asked previously about the HRDC funded students that went nowhere and forever gave me a bad taste of the whole procedure.

Approx. 8 years ago I watched a student get funding on the R22 for the bulk of the 100hrs. She made quite an impression with the other students who knew her situation. She did not take the course seriously at all. Managed to squeak out a licence and then went on to NOT work in the industry at all. To my knowledge, she did not have a letter promising employment.

The whole thing made me a non believer. That being said, if there was a way to ensure all candidates for 'free' training were going to be fine, hardworking pilots, it would make many happy. Also, who's to say that the HRDC student will pass the flight test and exam?

 

[tDawe]

Over-Talk - Now thats a damn good idea.

I never got EI funding for my training, I never got Mom and Dad funding, I never got won 25 cents in the coin slots at Rama funding for my training. and I'm ok with that. I took a year and worked the Sh(t(*st CSR sales type job, then I left that to spend the summer in lovely Atitkokan Ont. planting trees (you wanna earn money for helicopters? earn it at 9 cents a tree... ) and now I sling avgas in my spare time, some weeks as much as 80 hours a week, on top of flight training every day. AND I WOULDNT DO IT ANY OTHER WAY.

My rugby coach in college use to run us till we puked, till we collapsed, and when you couldnt run anymore, he would say "If it was easy, everyone would do it." We went undefeated and won gold that year, which doesnt have much to do with flying helicopters, but that phrase is in my head every time i try to auto the 300 to a spot, or learn how to toe in to the side of a cliff, or pump lousy stinking jet into some rich SOBs private jet all day for another .3 of helicopter time.

If some guys can get HRDC funding for 50 grand, or 50 bucks. good on ya, maybe when its all said and done youll be able to afford a 206 rating, and I wont, youll buy some time in Peniticon, or whatever. I hope it works out well for you i really do. theres a lot of pilots in Canada, and no two of em have the same story about how they got started.

Personnaly, id rather not get the hand out, If I had wanted a career that was easy, I wouldnt be here.. and sadly enough If I wanted a career that would make me rich I wouldnt be here either, Like some low time pilots out there, (don't worry high timers, we do exist) Im here because I bloody well love flying, and If I dont do this the next 60 years of my life there aint much else worth doing.

I don't think any less of guys who get HRDC funding.. but as a lowely rookie (to be) with 35 hours under my belt, looking at the very real prospect of being unemployed in 6 months, I can honestly say I agree with guys like 412 and Over Talk.

I think thats about the most I've ever written here.. sorry if its a bit dragging on, as always, its only my lowely 1.5 cents.

tDawe

 

[cyclic monkey]

Well said TDawe,
My golf coach has a saying that is appropriate here, (just like your rugby coach).

She says....."If you've got an itch, scratch it !!"

Your passion will take you far, good luck.