I just worked with a former "EAST" F/A - Many topics

[BoeingBoy]

This was a NASA tested procedure. Seriously it was. They found thru research that like the flight deck, they monitor and challenge their check list and found that fewer errors are created.

Ironically, the flight deck procedures are moving away from the "monitor and challenge" philosophy - more doing things from memory without check list backup and verification that it has been done. Presumably, the West flight deck philosophy is different than in the cabin.....

Jim

 

[hp_fa]

Ironically, the flight deck procedures are moving away from the "monitor and challenge" philosophy - more doing things from memory without check list backup and verification that it has been done. Presumably, the West flight deck philosophy is different than in the cabin.....

Jim

Hi Jim.

What is the thinking regarding what happens with either a memory lapse or a flight deck crew that doesn't have a CRM issue but just isn't on the same (figurative) page at the same time?

 

[BoeingBoy]

These changes are new, so here's my first take.....

Presumably, the thinking is that anything that doesn't have a check list "challenge/response" isn't critical or quickly becomes self-evident. I say "presumably" because we "line swine" haven't heard any rationale - just some rudimentary web-based training and new flows/checklists.

An example would be the total elimination of the 'after start' checklist - it's all flows done from memory now. So if I forget to switch from the APU generator to the engind-driven generators, it'll be obvious when the APU is shut down and all the lights go out. Or if I forget to turn on the "A" system hydraulic pumps, it'll be obvious when I can't steer (the 737 uses "A" hydraulics for nose wheel steering).

Like I said, I can only presume that most of the changes are to match the West procedures.

Jim

[edit to add]

I should add that the East checklist may have gone overboard the other way in some respects. But the theory was that anybody could miss/forget something so put just about everything on the checklist.

 

[hp_fa]

I should add that the East checklist may have gone overboard the other way in some respects. But the theory was that anybody could miss/forget something so put just about everything on the checklist.

Everything on the checklist, to me, is good. Think of what would happen if there was a "deal" and the lack of checklist items got into litigation.

I understand the counterpoint that says that all the information on the checklist could cause people to look at it, but not really read it because they know it so damn well.

Anyway, be well and make sure to let us know how that final flight goes.

 

[USCREW]

Just got back from a long stare out the window.

As I understand it so far, Monitor and Challenge refer to the door procedure. I would love to see that procedure fully explained here.

I’m still clueless about ACE.

I went to recurrent today and one of the intructors demonstrated the Monitor & Challenge procedure. I'm not sure if he was being funny or not, but it was amusing. One F/A does the door while the other one "Monitors", followed by one foot stomp, and a finger pointing at the door--this is the "Challenge". I'm not sure if it's supposed to be quite that dramatic. He also talked through the entire procedure.

 

[nyprincess]

I went to recurrent today and one of the intructors demonstrated the Monitor & Challenge procedure. I'm not sure if he was being funny or not but it was amusing. One F/A does the door while the other one "Monitors", followed by one foot stomp, and a finger pointing at the door--this is the "Challenge". I'm not sure if it's supposed to be quite that dramatic. He also talked through the entire procedure.

It IS suppost to be that dramatic.

 

[algflyr]

It IS suppost to be that dramatic.

Whatever...

 

[nyprincess]

Whatever...

whatever to you...MCFLY!

 

[IMisstheAladdinTrays]

It IS suppost to be that dramatic.

Ny I know your East now out West...so tell us how it's done. I really want to know.

 

[nyprincess]

Ny I know your East now out West...so tell us how it's done. I really want to know.

When you get to the gate...the the 2nd f/a will disarm both doors. The 1st f/a is standing to verify with the 2nd. The 2nd will go to the 1R door, point to the arming lever and say...preparing to disarm. I will then point to the lever and say Verified. They will then say....disarming while they are disarming the door. Go to the 1L and do the same thing but before actually disarming the door will look out the window to make sure the jetway is coming to the door. The pax in the 1st row will get a kick out of it, but at least we're not blowing a slide. Then you will hear over the pa(on airbus only) from the captain...okay to open. Then if your changing planes the 1st must go to the back of the plane and over the pa say....performing pax check. Then check the doors in the back, the lavs, the overheads and all the seats. Come to the front and over the pa say....pax check complete, no pax left on board.
And that's how it's done....

 

[USCREW]

Princess,

So what is your opinion on the door op?

 

[nyprincess]

Princess,

So what is your opinion on the door op?

I like that we both are involved in each door disarming process but would like it to be less dramatic. Cause in reality it is. Do you really think I'm putting my hand up and verifying with the other f/a? Or when I'm disarming the door I'm actually putting my hand up at the disarming lever?....NO. Cause it's stupid!! But to have both f/a's looking at one door at the same time to verify a slide not being blown is fine by me.

 

[N965VJ]

I am starting to think that we are dumbing ourselves down to the level of a machine. And as we know, machines are stupid; they just wait for us to tell them to do something.

If one was to open an armed door on a US DC-9, the slide would just flop against the side of the fuselage. One had to pull the “inflateâ€￾ strap to activate the slide, which was the job of the FA, or the PAX if they took the time to study the card.

If the FA was incapacitated to the extent that they could not operate the door and slide, then I would suspect that exiting without a usable slide would be the least of concern for everyone involved.

 

[Jetsetter2Ord]

The Monitor and Challenge is a door arming and disarming procedure to help alleviate the amount of blown slides that can occur. The first (A) monitors the Second FA ( disarm as they are "preparing to disarm". The first (a) says "verified" if the second ( is preparing to lift the disarm/arm lever. If correct the second ( says "disarming" and disarms door 1R. (Now if the second ( goes to lift the door handle...the first,(a) Shouts "STOP!"
Now second ( goes to door 1L and does the same monitor and challenge procedure. And awaits the flight deck to state, " Doors OK to open". The second ( awaits the gate agent to knock on the door and the second gives the "thumbs Up" signal for the agent to open the service door. (Now if the door is not disarmed by the time the gate agent knocks, the FA gives the crossed hands signal to indicate that the door is still armed. (Gate agent does NOT open the door)

This was a NASA tested procedure. Seriously it was. They found thru research that like the flight deck, they monitor and challenge their check list and found that fewer errors are created.

So that explains the Monitor and Challenge Door Operating Procedures. ( this will be company wide door operating procedures for ALL flight attndts both East and West)

 

[N965VJ]

Let me throw something else out there to chew on-

With all the thought and processes devoted to NOT inflating a slide, is something being forgotten about WHEN to do so?